From netrek at gmail.com  Sat Aug  4 07:13:01 2007
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 08:13:01 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] compile error
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0708040513j5a8c4e4bh21c44ac446b53024@mail.gmail.com>

 -c -o colors.o colors.c
In file included from netrek.h:11,
                 from colors.c:9:
distress.h:14: error: array type has incomplete element type
distress.h:15: error: array type has incomplete element type
make: *** [colors.o] Error 1

I looked in distress.h and it seems fine:

distress.h:14:
extern struct dmacro_list dist_defaults[];

distress.h:15
extern struct dmacro_list dist_prefered[];

Any idea how to fix this? I don't understand what is causing the
error. the struct definition is very straight forward.

Zach


From chronosws at comcast.net  Sat Aug  4 10:13:30 2007
From: chronosws at comcast.net (ChronosWS)
Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 08:13:30 -0700
Subject: [netrek-dev] compile error
In-Reply-To: <ecfa260c0708040513j5a8c4e4bh21c44ac446b53024@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ecfa260c0708040513j5a8c4e4bh21c44ac446b53024@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000301c7d6aa$049f4680$0dddd380$@net>

dmacro_list is not being defined.  Find out which header file has the
definition for that struct and make sure to include it prior to the extern
declarations which are generating the error.

-----Original Message-----
From: netrek-dev-bounces at us.netrek.org
[mailto:netrek-dev-bounces at us.netrek.org] On Behalf Of Zach
Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2007 5:13 AM
To: Netrek Development Mailing List
Subject: [netrek-dev] compile error

 -c -o colors.o colors.c
In file included from netrek.h:11,
                 from colors.c:9:
distress.h:14: error: array type has incomplete element type
distress.h:15: error: array type has incomplete element type
make: *** [colors.o] Error 1

I looked in distress.h and it seems fine:

distress.h:14:
extern struct dmacro_list dist_defaults[];

distress.h:15
extern struct dmacro_list dist_prefered[];

Any idea how to fix this? I don't understand what is causing the
error. the struct definition is very straight forward.

Zach

_______________________________________________
netrek-dev mailing list
netrek-dev at us.netrek.org
http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev



From netrek at gmail.com  Sat Aug  4 16:31:24 2007
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 17:31:24 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] compile error
In-Reply-To: <000301c7d6aa$049f4680$0dddd380$@net>
References: <ecfa260c0708040513j5a8c4e4bh21c44ac446b53024@mail.gmail.com>
	<000301c7d6aa$049f4680$0dddd380$@net>
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0708041431h3fc51807v5187533ed97a48cc@mail.gmail.com>

Oh ok. Thanks I will try that!

Zach

On 8/4/07, ChronosWS <chronosws at comcast.net> wrote:
> dmacro_list is not being defined.  Find out which header file has the
> definition for that struct and make sure to include it prior to the extern
> declarations which are generating the error.


From netrek at gmail.com  Sat Aug  4 20:31:10 2007
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 21:31:10 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] Sturgeon?
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0708041831n5ee571c6rfcaaf6a973f0ed2b@mail.gmail.com>

Is Bill's sturgeon code now fully integrated into Vanilla? If not does
he has a repo where I could check out his sturgeon code and compile
it?

Zach


From netrek at gmail.com  Sat Aug  4 20:29:40 2007
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 21:29:40 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] compile error
In-Reply-To: <ecfa260c0708041431h3fc51807v5187533ed97a48cc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ecfa260c0708040513j5a8c4e4bh21c44ac446b53024@mail.gmail.com>
	<000301c7d6aa$049f4680$0dddd380$@net>
	<ecfa260c0708041431h3fc51807v5187533ed97a48cc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0708041829t56444654xc93632ef306b51b7@mail.gmail.com>

I was able to finally get the client compiled after fixing 10 compile errors :)

Zach

On 8/4/07, Zach <netrek at gmail.com> wrote:
> Oh ok. Thanks I will try that!
>
> Zach
>
> On 8/4/07, ChronosWS <chronosws at comcast.net> wrote:
> > dmacro_list is not being defined.  Find out which header file has the
> > definition for that struct and make sure to include it prior to the extern
> > declarations which are generating the error.
>


From billbalcerski at gmail.com  Sun Aug  5 23:19:37 2007
From: billbalcerski at gmail.com (Bill Balcerski)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 00:19:37 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] Need help with security vulnerability in Vanilla server
Message-ID: <45ab86180708052119r7387845au3ec390f0f1f1b05e@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all.  Over the past few months, netrek servers I run have come
under a distributed denial of service attack that has been pretty
constant and insistent.  Initially the attacks started out as mass
flood connects from a few IPs, but after some measures were put into
place to prevent that, the attacks morphed into hundreds and thousands
of unique IPs connecting to the server in spaced out intervals so that
unique IPs occupy every slot.  The slots sit at the login screen,
preventing players from connecting.  This sort of attack, while
currently only directed at me (first at sturgeon, then at my bronco
server when I took sturgeon off the metaserver) can be used to knock
any netrek server out.  With so few servers and server operators, I
really think this needs to be addressed.  Quozl had put some things on
the todo list regarding this, namely some sort of handshake between
client and server, but this is really out of my league to implement.
So I am asking of the dev community, if you can contribute code to
deal with this security hole, please do so.

On another note, I am quite distressed at how much pressure is being
put on independent server operators to not run public servers.  First
pulsar, then meeper, and now warped will all forced out of operation
by complaints (or criminal behavior) from a vocal few.  I think it's a
shame we are losing developers due to this sort of thing.  More
servers and server operators should be encouraged, not discouraged due
to fear of spreading out the playerbase.
Bill


From jrd at gerdesas.com  Sun Aug  5 23:33:19 2007
From: jrd at gerdesas.com (John R. Dennison)
Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2007 23:33:19 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] Need help with security vulnerability in Vanilla
	server
In-Reply-To: <45ab86180708052119r7387845au3ec390f0f1f1b05e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <45ab86180708052119r7387845au3ec390f0f1f1b05e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070806043319.GE6015@mail.beanhq.com>

On Mon, Aug 06, 2007 at 12:19:37AM -0400, Bill Balcerski wrote:
> Hi all.  Over the past few months, netrek servers I run have come
> under a distributed denial of service attack that has been pretty
> constant and insistent.  Initially the attacks started out as mass
> flood connects from a few IPs, but after some measures were put into
> place to prevent that, the attacks morphed into hundreds and thousands
> of unique IPs connecting to the server in spaced out intervals so that
> unique IPs occupy every slot.  The slots sit at the login screen,
> preventing players from connecting.  This sort of attack, while
> currently only directed at me (first at sturgeon, then at my bronco
> server when I took sturgeon off the metaserver) can be used to knock
> any netrek server out.  With so few servers and server operators, I
> really think this needs to be addressed.  Quozl had put some things on
> the todo list regarding this, namely some sort of handshake between
> client and server, but this is really out of my league to implement.
> So I am asking of the dev community, if you can contribute code to
> deal with this security hole, please do so.

	Perhaps you shouldn't have pissed off so many people over the
	past few years by your behavior.  It is completely evident that
	this is personal; no other servers have been attacked except
	for yours.

	*shrug*.

> On another note, I am quite distressed at how much pressure is being
> put on independent server operators to not run public servers.  First
> pulsar, then meeper, and now warped will all forced out of operation
> by complaints (or criminal behavior) from a vocal few.  I think it's a
> shame we are losing developers due to this sort of thing.  More
> servers and server operators should be encouraged, not discouraged due
> to fear of spreading out the playerbase.

	Umm, pulsar was shut down by it's admin, there was no external
	pressure to do so by anyone else.  His server was, if memory
	serves, hanging and he didn't have time to deal with it.

	meeper was asked to stop hosting useless bot servers that
	served no purpose.  He was then asked to shut down his 
	hockey server that was tcp only and sitting on the end of 
	a slow dsl line.  It served no purpose and attracted newbies
	that were confused by the server.  meeper is not a developer
	and had to have his hand held in compiling the server and
	getting it functional.

	Please get your facts straight.




							John


-- 
"I'm sorry but our engineers do not have phones."
As stated by a Network Solutions Customer Service representative when asked to
be put through to an engineer.

"My other computer is your windows box."
                                     Ralf Hildebrandt
<sxem> trying to play sturgeon while it's under attack is apparently not fun.
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From chronosws at comcast.net  Mon Aug  6 00:20:45 2007
From: chronosws at comcast.net (ChronosWS)
Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2007 22:20:45 -0700
Subject: [netrek-dev] Need help with security vulnerability in
	Vanilla	server
In-Reply-To: <20070806043319.GE6015@mail.beanhq.com>
References: <45ab86180708052119r7387845au3ec390f0f1f1b05e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070806043319.GE6015@mail.beanhq.com>
Message-ID: <000901c7d7e9$8b229640$a167c2c0$@net>

Man asks for help, you lay into him, blaming him for the attacks.  Nice.

Unfortunately, so long as you have to make your IP public and its static
your ports will remain under attack.  You could alter the server code so
that slots are not assigned until the player has authenticated, which is the
way it should be anyhow.  This can be defeated of course by the attacker
making the nodes actually perform a log in - I don't know how smart they
are, they may not be capable of this level of code.

Alternately, you could canvas the userlist of known servers or your past
connection logs for valid playing IPs and whitelist them with your firewall.
This might be a decent stopgap measure while you implement your security
fix.

-----Original Message-----
From: netrek-dev-bounces at us.netrek.org
[mailto:netrek-dev-bounces at us.netrek.org] On Behalf Of John R. Dennison
Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2007 9:33 PM
To: Bill Balcerski
Cc: netrek-dev at us.netrek.org
Subject: Re: [netrek-dev] Need help with security vulnerability in Vanilla
server

On Mon, Aug 06, 2007 at 12:19:37AM -0400, Bill Balcerski wrote:
> Hi all.  Over the past few months, netrek servers I run have come 
> under a distributed denial of service attack that has been pretty 
> constant and insistent.  Initially the attacks started out as mass 
> flood connects from a few IPs, but after some measures were put into 
> place to prevent that, the attacks morphed into hundreds and thousands 
> of unique IPs connecting to the server in spaced out intervals so that 
> unique IPs occupy every slot.  The slots sit at the login screen, 
> preventing players from connecting.  This sort of attack, while 
> currently only directed at me (first at sturgeon, then at my bronco 
> server when I took sturgeon off the metaserver) can be used to knock 
> any netrek server out.  With so few servers and server operators, I 
> really think this needs to be addressed.  Quozl had put some things on 
> the todo list regarding this, namely some sort of handshake between 
> client and server, but this is really out of my league to implement.
> So I am asking of the dev community, if you can contribute code to 
> deal with this security hole, please do so.

	Perhaps you shouldn't have pissed off so many people over the
	past few years by your behavior.  It is completely evident that
	this is personal; no other servers have been attacked except
	for yours.

	*shrug*.

> On another note, I am quite distressed at how much pressure is being 
> put on independent server operators to not run public servers.  First 
> pulsar, then meeper, and now warped will all forced out of operation 
> by complaints (or criminal behavior) from a vocal few.  I think it's a 
> shame we are losing developers due to this sort of thing.  More 
> servers and server operators should be encouraged, not discouraged due 
> to fear of spreading out the playerbase.

	Umm, pulsar was shut down by it's admin, there was no external
	pressure to do so by anyone else.  His server was, if memory
	serves, hanging and he didn't have time to deal with it.

	meeper was asked to stop hosting useless bot servers that
	served no purpose.  He was then asked to shut down his 
	hockey server that was tcp only and sitting on the end of 
	a slow dsl line.  It served no purpose and attracted newbies
	that were confused by the server.  meeper is not a developer
	and had to have his hand held in compiling the server and
	getting it functional.

	Please get your facts straight.




							John


--
"I'm sorry but our engineers do not have phones."
As stated by a Network Solutions Customer Service representative when asked
to be put through to an engineer.

"My other computer is your windows box."
                                     Ralf Hildebrandt <sxem> trying to play
sturgeon while it's under attack is apparently not fun.



From mark at mark.mielke.cc  Mon Aug  6 00:27:26 2007
From: mark at mark.mielke.cc (Mark Mielke)
Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 01:27:26 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] Need help with security vulnerability in Vanilla
 server
In-Reply-To: <20070806043319.GE6015@mail.beanhq.com>
References: <45ab86180708052119r7387845au3ec390f0f1f1b05e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070806043319.GE6015@mail.beanhq.com>
Message-ID: <46B6B13E.9010608@mark.mielke.cc>

John R. Dennison wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 06, 2007 at 12:19:37AM -0400, Bill Balcerski wrote:
>   
>> Hi all.  Over the past few months, netrek servers I run have come
>> under a distributed denial of service attack that has been pretty
>> constant and insistent.  Initially the attacks started out as mass
>> flood connects from a few IPs, but after some measures were put into
>> place to prevent that, the attacks morphed into hundreds and thousands
>> of unique IPs connecting to the server in spaced out intervals so that
>> unique IPs occupy every slot.  The slots sit at the login screen,
>> preventing players from connecting.  This sort of attack, while
>> currently only directed at me (first at sturgeon, then at my bronco
>> server when I took sturgeon off the metaserver) can be used to knock
>> any netrek server out.  With so few servers and server operators, I
>> really think this needs to be addressed.  Quozl had put some things on
>> the todo list regarding this, namely some sort of handshake between
>> client and server, but this is really out of my league to implement.
>> So I am asking of the dev community, if you can contribute code to
>> deal with this security hole, please do so.
>>     
> 	Perhaps you shouldn't have pissed off so many people over the
> 	past few years by your behavior.  It is completely evident that
> 	this is personal; no other servers have been attacked except
> 	for yours.
>
> 	*shrug*.
>   
Whether he pissed people off or not - it seems rather rude (if not 
criminal) to smack his server around.

I would hope whoever was involved would find something more constructive 
and mature to do with their talent and time.

Cheers,
mark

-- 
Mark Mielke <mark at mielke.cc>


From jrd at gerdesas.com  Mon Aug  6 00:31:36 2007
From: jrd at gerdesas.com (John R. Dennison)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 00:31:36 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] Need help with security vulnerability in
	Vanilla	server
In-Reply-To: <000901c7d7e9$8b229640$a167c2c0$@net>
References: <45ab86180708052119r7387845au3ec390f0f1f1b05e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070806043319.GE6015@mail.beanhq.com>
	<000901c7d7e9$8b229640$a167c2c0$@net>
Message-ID: <20070806053136.GF6015@mail.beanhq.com>

On Sun, Aug 05, 2007 at 10:20:45PM -0700, ChronosWS wrote:
> Man asks for help, you lay into him, blaming him for the attacks.  Nice.

	And for good reason.  Years of good reason.

> Alternately, you could canvas the userlist of known servers or your past
> connection logs for valid playing IPs and whitelist them with your firewall.
> This might be a decent stopgap measure while you implement your security
> fix.

	Better then nothing, but it will not work for anyone on a
	dynamic connection.




							John

-- 
"I'm sorry but our engineers do not have phones."
As stated by a Network Solutions Customer Service representative when asked to
be put through to an engineer.

"My other computer is your windows box."
                                     Ralf Hildebrandt
<sxem> trying to play sturgeon while it's under attack is apparently not fun.
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From netrek at gmail.com  Mon Aug  6 01:50:00 2007
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 02:50:00 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] Need help with security vulnerability in Vanilla
	server
In-Reply-To: <46B6B13E.9010608@mark.mielke.cc>
References: <45ab86180708052119r7387845au3ec390f0f1f1b05e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070806043319.GE6015@mail.beanhq.com>
	<46B6B13E.9010608@mark.mielke.cc>
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0708052350wee9093fge3920f6c8781f325@mail.gmail.com>

How does 1 person get control of thousands of unique IP addresses? Did
they hack thousands of servers just so they could attack a game server
which hardly anyone plays and will garner then virtually no notoriety
(which many hackers seem to crave). A very disturbed person.

Zach


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Mon Aug  6 06:51:59 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 21:51:59 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] Sturgeon?
In-Reply-To: <ecfa260c0708041831n5ee571c6rfcaaf6a973f0ed2b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ecfa260c0708041831n5ee571c6rfcaaf6a973f0ed2b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070806115159.GH24650@us.netrek.org>

SourceControl in the development Wiki summarises available repositories,
as does the file REPOSITORIES in the netrek-server-vanilla sources, and
one of these repositories is:

http://netrek.warped.us/public-server/                  Bill Balcerski

On Sat, Aug 04, 2007 at 09:31:10PM -0400, Zach wrote:
> Is Bill's sturgeon code now fully integrated into Vanilla?

Bill will have to answer that.  There are no patches in that repository
that haven't been pulled into my repository.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Mon Aug  6 07:28:53 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 22:28:53 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] compile error
In-Reply-To: <ecfa260c0708041829t56444654xc93632ef306b51b7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ecfa260c0708040513j5a8c4e4bh21c44ac446b53024@mail.gmail.com>
	<000301c7d6aa$049f4680$0dddd380$@net>
	<ecfa260c0708041431h3fc51807v5187533ed97a48cc@mail.gmail.com>
	<ecfa260c0708041829t56444654xc93632ef306b51b7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070806122853.GK24650@us.netrek.org>

On Sat, Aug 04, 2007 at 09:29:40PM -0400, Zach wrote:
> I was able to finally get the client compiled after fixing 10 compile
> errors :)

Publish your work!  Don't waste those 10 fixes.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Mon Aug  6 07:55:36 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 22:55:36 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] Need help with security vulnerability in Vanilla
	server
In-Reply-To: <ecfa260c0708052350wee9093fge3920f6c8781f325@mail.gmail.com>
	<46B6B13E.9010608@mark.mielke.cc>
	<20070806053136.GF6015@mail.beanhq.com>
	<000901c7d7e9$8b229640$a167c2c0$@net>
	<20070806043319.GE6015@mail.beanhq.com>
	<45ab86180708052119r7387845au3ec390f0f1f1b05e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <45ab86180708052119r7387845au3ec390f0f1f1b05e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070806043319.GE6015@mail.beanhq.com>
	<000901c7d7e9$8b229640$a167c2c0$@net>
	<20070806053136.GF6015@mail.beanhq.com>
	<45ab86180708052119r7387845au3ec390f0f1f1b05e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070806043319.GE6015@mail.beanhq.com>
	<000901c7d7e9$8b229640$a167c2c0$@net>
	<45ab86180708052119r7387845au3ec390f0f1f1b05e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070806043319.GE6015@mail.beanhq.com>
	<45ab86180708052119r7387845au3ec390f0f1f1b05e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070806125536.GM24650@us.netrek.org>

Warning: composite reply to multiple posts.

On Mon, Aug 06, 2007 at 12:19:37AM -0400, Bill Balcerski wrote:
> Quozl had put some things on the todo list regarding this, namely some
> sort of handshake between client and server, but this is really out of
> my league to implement.

The two items in PROJECTS are:

- avoid sending SP_PSTATUS for newly logged in slots until after
  successful authentication.  Prevents attack via username [because the
  username is not made visible to the other players].  Prevents
  pre-registration attacks.

- avoid placing ship in game until successful client verification.
  [currently client verification happens just after ship begins flight]

There is also the latent player registration feature that is not yet
ready.  It lacks scripting.  Same kind of thing as various web sites;
you register by providing your e-mail address, and a token is sent back
to that address that lets you in.  It could be trialled for clue games,
and would have potential benefit of not requiring login.  Speedy
reconnect in case of bust.

> First pulsar, then meeper, and now warped will all forced out of
> operation by complaints (or criminal behavior) from a vocal few.

This is nothing new.  I've had complaints or potentially criminal
behaviour from others on continuum.  The vocal few need to be ignored
sometimes.  At one stage I had to ask someone from caltech.edu to stop
logging in multiple times to get t-mode ... just to respond to some
really noisy vocal few who were making my life miserable with their
e-mails and in-game contacts.

On Sun, Aug 05, 2007 at 11:33:19PM -0500, John R. Dennison wrote:
> 	Perhaps you shouldn't have pissed off so many people over the
> 	past few years by your behavior.

Agreed.

> It is completely evident that this is personal; no other servers have
> been attacked except for yours.

I'm not so sure.  Continuum has experienced a possible denial of service
attack in the past month or two, just that I haven't been as open about
it as Bill has.  Did some patching on it tonight.

> 	Umm, pulsar was shut down by it's admin, [...]

Agreed.

> 	meeper was asked to stop hosting useless bot servers that
> 	served no purpose.

Agreed.

On Sun, Aug 05, 2007 at 10:20:45PM -0700, ChronosWS wrote:
> Man asks for help, you lay into him, blaming him for the attacks.
> Nice.

More could be said, but I'm not sure it would help.  John is accurate
though ... Bill has contributed some great patches, for vulnerabilities
he discovered and made use of.  ;-)

> You could alter the server code so that slots are not assigned until
> the player has authenticated, which is the way it should be anyhow.

Yes, that's the essence of the registration system plus the two added
items at head of PROJECTS.

On Mon, Aug 06, 2007 at 01:27:26AM -0400, Mark Mielke wrote:
> Whether he pissed people off or not - it seems rather rude (if not 
> criminal) to smack his server around.

I can't speak for the criminal law in that country, but I imagine
there's something that can be done, if it can be traced.

On the other hand, running a vulnerable application is stupid, Cryo.
;-)

> I would hope whoever was involved would find something more constructive 
> and mature to do with their talent and time.

Like teasing in school, the only viable solution is to not respond.
This whole thread will just make it worse.

On Mon, Aug 06, 2007 at 02:50:00AM -0400, Zach wrote:
> How does 1 person get control of thousands of unique IP addresses?

That is a trivial technical problem.  If you didn't believe it could be
done, you really need to get out more.  As a start, go read the
Wikipedia article on Botnets.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botnet

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From karthik at karthik.com  Mon Aug  6 11:48:02 2007
From: karthik at karthik.com (Karthik Arumugham)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 12:48:02 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] Need help with security vulnerability in Vanilla
	server
In-Reply-To: <20070806125536.GM24650@us.netrek.org>
References: <45ab86180708052119r7387845au3ec390f0f1f1b05e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070806043319.GE6015@mail.beanhq.com>
	<000901c7d7e9$8b229640$a167c2c0$@net>
	<20070806053136.GF6015@mail.beanhq.com>
	<45ab86180708052119r7387845au3ec390f0f1f1b05e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070806043319.GE6015@mail.beanhq.com>
	<000901c7d7e9$8b229640$a167c2c0$@net>
	<45ab86180708052119r7387845au3ec390f0f1f1b05e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070806043319.GE6015@mail.beanhq.com>
	<45ab86180708052119r7387845au3ec390f0f1f1b05e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070806125536.GM24650@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <B324C16C-0235-46A3-9B87-A5AFB4E6780B@karthik.com>

On Aug 6, 2007, at 8:55 AM, James Cameron wrote:

> I'm not so sure.  Continuum has experienced a possible denial of  
> service
> attack in the past month or two, just that I haven't been as open  
> about
> it as Bill has.  Did some patching on it tonight.

I've experienced a few cases where there were 3 slots (my dup limit)  
sitting partially logged-in. In the couple cases where I saw an  
actual player come in from that IP, it turned out to be a MacTrek  
user. It seems a MacTrek client bug may be triggering occasional  
groups of dead slots. You may have been seeing this as well. (Ccing  
Chris Lukassen in case he doesn't see this on the list.)

I haven't seen anything else resembling a DoS on pickled, past the  
usual idiocy of people occasionally logging in several slots for  
whatever purpose and similar. Certainly nothing that was a sustained  
attack.


From kaut at ece.ualberta.ca  Mon Aug  6 15:11:19 2007
From: kaut at ece.ualberta.ca (Rob Kaut)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 14:11:19 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [netrek-dev] Server back up again.
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0708061408370.8897-100000@feynman.ece.ualberta.ca>


I can finally post to [netrek-dev] again, so reposting message from
several months back.

--

Hey all.

I finally have my server (paradise.homeunix.org) back up again after the
hardware failure. I managed to get UDP working as well during the
outage, so you should have a bit more stable of a connection than
before.

It doesn't appear on the metas yet because solicitation isn't working,
but I'm on it. I hope to have it working soon. Until then, it's at the
aforementioned address at the usual port.

Let me know if you have any problem(s) and I'll try to take a look into
it/them ASAP.

Until then, happy trekking. :)

Hobbes



From quozl at us.netrek.org  Mon Aug  6 18:01:09 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 09:01:09 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] Server back up again.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0708061408370.8897-100000@feynman.ece.ualberta.ca>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0708061408370.8897-100000@feynman.ece.ualberta.ca>
Message-ID: <20070806230109.GC4224@us.netrek.org>

On Mon, Aug 06, 2007 at 02:11:19PM -0600, Rob Kaut wrote:
> It doesn't appear on the metas yet because solicitation isn't working,
> but I'm on it.

Let me know if you have any questions about the protocol, or ways to
diagnose it.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From netrek at gmail.com  Mon Aug  6 18:08:32 2007
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 19:08:32 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] Sturgeon?
In-Reply-To: <20070806115159.GH24650@us.netrek.org>
References: <ecfa260c0708041831n5ee571c6rfcaaf6a973f0ed2b@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070806115159.GH24650@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0708061608n19402058y558aed2bece9f6ce@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/6/07, James Cameron <quozl at us.netrek.org> wrote:
> SourceControl in the development Wiki summarises available repositories,
> as does the file REPOSITORIES in the netrek-server-vanilla sources, and
> one of these repositories is:
>
> http://netrek.warped.us/public-server/                  Bill Balcerski

Cool.

> On Sat, Aug 04, 2007 at 09:31:10PM -0400, Zach wrote:
> > Is Bill's sturgeon code now fully integrated into Vanilla?
>
> Bill will have to answer that.  There are no patches in that repository
> that haven't been pulled into my repository.

Ok.

Zach


From netrek at gmail.com  Mon Aug  6 18:10:02 2007
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 19:10:02 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] compile error
In-Reply-To: <20070806122853.GK24650@us.netrek.org>
References: <ecfa260c0708040513j5a8c4e4bh21c44ac446b53024@mail.gmail.com>
	<000301c7d6aa$049f4680$0dddd380$@net>
	<ecfa260c0708041431h3fc51807v5187533ed97a48cc@mail.gmail.com>
	<ecfa260c0708041829t56444654xc93632ef306b51b7@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070806122853.GK24650@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0708061610q6874abd2l6f4d695ccc220bb5@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/6/07, James Cameron <quozl at us.netrek.org> wrote:
>
> Publish your work!  Don't waste those 10 fixes

Ok. Will be setting up my own updated repo soon I hope.

Zach


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Mon Aug  6 19:10:07 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 10:10:07 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] compile error
In-Reply-To: <ecfa260c0708061610q6874abd2l6f4d695ccc220bb5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ecfa260c0708040513j5a8c4e4bh21c44ac446b53024@mail.gmail.com>
	<000301c7d6aa$049f4680$0dddd380$@net>
	<ecfa260c0708041431h3fc51807v5187533ed97a48cc@mail.gmail.com>
	<ecfa260c0708041829t56444654xc93632ef306b51b7@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070806122853.GK24650@us.netrek.org>
	<ecfa260c0708061610q6874abd2l6f4d695ccc220bb5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070807001007.GF4224@us.netrek.org>

On Mon, Aug 06, 2007 at 07:10:02PM -0400, Zach wrote:
> Ok. Will be setting up my own updated repo soon I hope.

Why?  Just do a diff now, review it, and post to netrek-dev.  After all,
what you are working on doesn't even have a repo, right?

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From kaut at ece.ualberta.ca  Mon Aug  6 20:01:36 2007
From: kaut at ece.ualberta.ca (Rob Kaut)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 19:01:36 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [netrek-dev] Server back up again.
In-Reply-To: <20070806230109.GC4224@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0708061859420.16497-100000@feynman.ece.ualberta.ca>


On Tue, 7 Aug 2007, James Cameron wrote:

> On Mon, Aug 06, 2007 at 02:11:19PM -0600, Rob Kaut wrote:
> > It doesn't appear on the metas yet because solicitation isn't
> > working, but I'm on it.
> 
> Let me know if you have any questions about the protocol, or ways to
> diagnose it.
> 

Will do. I'll post a follow-up or drop by #netrek once I've had the
chance to work on it and have some idea of what's going on.

r



From quozl at us.netrek.org  Tue Aug  7 08:28:33 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 23:28:33 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] Clever suggestion
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0707191709430.762@shaka.acc.umu.se>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0707190916320.762@shaka.acc.umu.se>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0707190916320.762@shaka.acc.umu.se>
	<20070719134748.GA25236@us.netrek.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0707191709430.762@shaka.acc.umu.se>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0707190916320.762@shaka.acc.umu.se>
Message-ID: <20070807132833.GA27805@us.netrek.org>

On Thu, Jul 19, 2007 at 09:20:01AM +0200, Niclas Fredriksson wrote:
> I have a suggestion for whoever's working on the server code. I'd like to 
> see a better countdown to timercide. Right now we get a message at the 30 
> minute mark and at the 15 minute mark (maybe it's a few more, I've been up 
> all night playing so I'm not very sharp right now).

I investigated.  The existing source code emits the messages every five
minutes.

> I'd like to see one 
> every minute from T-5m and then in the last minute I'd like to see it at 
> T-50s, T-40s, T-30s, T-20s, T-10s and T-(9-1)s (that is at every second 
> the last ten seconds). Like INL end game. I think that would make 
> timercides even more fun and intriguing.

I agree, and so I've made a change on continuum to support this, in that
a message will be emitted every minute for the last five minutes.

I wasn't able to easily do a ten second countdown, because the existing
source code is very definite about the surrender checking being done
every server minute.

Interesting side-effect in the existing code is that any pause to the
surrender results in whole minute delays.

On Thu, Jul 19, 2007 at 05:10:20PM +0200, Niclas Fredriksson wrote:
> Also it would be great if the "time" command on the non-INL server 
> could show seconds and not only minutes.

I've also added this.  Please try it out.  The possible messages you
will get include:

"The %s have %d minutes %d seconds left before they surrender."

"The %s have %d minutes left before they surrender."

"The %s will have %d minutes left, when players return"

"The %s will have %d minutes left, if they lose a planet"

There is a strong possibility of server crash due to inadequate testing.
Let me know if that happens.  The two types of crash will be either loss
of connection for all players at once, or loss of connection for one
player who does a TIME command.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From niclas at acc.umu.se  Tue Aug  7 10:43:50 2007
From: niclas at acc.umu.se (Niclas Fredriksson)
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 17:43:50 +0200 (MEST)
Subject: [netrek-dev] Clever suggestion
In-Reply-To: <20070807132833.GA27805@us.netrek.org>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0707190916320.762@shaka.acc.umu.se>
	<20070719134748.GA25236@us.netrek.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0707191709430.762@shaka.acc.umu.se>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0707190916320.762@shaka.acc.umu.se>
	<20070807132833.GA27805@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0708071743030.15532@shaka.acc.umu.se>

On Tue, 7 Aug 2007, James Cameron wrote:

> I've made a change on continuum to support this

Thanks, I'll check it out. Hopefully it will come to pickled sometime soon 
too.

-- Niclas


From netrek at gmail.com  Wed Aug  8 23:13:13 2007
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 00:13:13 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] diff
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0708082113q73b18fd2x76e0dc73735e1d5f@mail.gmail.com>

Only in brmh-2.4.0/: BRMH-2.4.0-CHANGELOG
diff -e -r /tmp/brmh-2.4.0/data.h brmh-2.4.0/data.h
410,411c
static char     *metaserver;
static int      metaport;
.
273,275c
extern W_Window messagew, w, mapw, statwin, baseWin, infow, iconWin,
tstatw, war, warnw, helpWin, teamWin[4], qwin, messwa, messwt, messwi,
messwk, planetw, rankw, playerw, optionWin, reviewWin, waitWin,
metaWin;
.
diff -e -r /tmp/brmh-2.4.0/distress.h brmh-2.4.0/distress.h
96,103d
7c
#include "dmacro.h"
.
Only in brmh-2.4.0/: dmacro.h
diff -e -r /tmp/brmh-2.4.0/findslot.c brmh-2.4.0/findslot.c
57c
W_Window                   qwin, countWin, motdButtonWin, waitIcon;
.
Only in brmh-2.4.0/: Makefile
diff -e -r /tmp/brmh-2.4.0/Manifest brmh-2.4.0/Manifest
79,85d
16a
 \a.g.x_bitmaps
 \bitmaps.h
 \borg
 \clockbitmap.h
 \cursors.h
 \dynshipbitmaps.h
 \icon.h
 \ind_starbase
 \miscbitmaps.h
 \moobitmaps.h
 \oldbitmaps.h
 \puck
 \shieldbitmaps.h
 \shipbitmaps.h
.
8d
diff -e -r /tmp/brmh-2.4.0/metaserver.c brmh-2.4.0/metaserver.c
60c
static char    *metaserver = "metaserver.us.netrek.org";
.
Only in brmh-2.4.0/: netrek
Only in brmh-2.4.0/: randomize
Only in brmh-2.4.0/: rsa_box_0.c
Only in brmh-2.4.0/: rsa_box_1.c
Only in brmh-2.4.0/: rsa_box_2.c
Only in brmh-2.4.0/: rsa_box_3.c
Only in brmh-2.4.0/: rsa_box_4.c
Only in brmh-2.4.0/: rsa_box.c


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Thu Aug  9 01:04:12 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 16:04:12 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] diff
In-Reply-To: <ecfa260c0708082113q73b18fd2x76e0dc73735e1d5f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ecfa260c0708082113q73b18fd2x76e0dc73735e1d5f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070809060412.GA16686@us.netrek.org>

Err, yuck.  Use "-u" flag for diff.  Read the rest of the good patching
practice that I've referred you to before.

http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Software-Release-Practice-HOWTO/patching.html

And use a meaningful subject.  "diff" as a subject means "ignore my mail
I don't know what I'm doing."

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From netrek at gmail.com  Thu Aug  9 02:22:44 2007
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 03:22:44 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] diff
In-Reply-To: <20070809060412.GA16686@us.netrek.org>
References: <ecfa260c0708082113q73b18fd2x76e0dc73735e1d5f@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070809060412.GA16686@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0708090022i5e569c37n67b0f512f8113da3@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/9/07, James Cameron <quozl at us.netrek.org> wrote:
> Err, yuck.  Use "-u" flag for diff.

Ok.

> And use a meaningful subject.  "diff" as a subject means "ignore my mail
> I don't know what I'm doing."

Sorry I thought since we already discussed it on list everyone knew
what the diff was I was sending.

Zach


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Thu Aug  9 02:46:42 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 17:46:42 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] diff
In-Reply-To: <ecfa260c0708090022i5e569c37n67b0f512f8113da3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ecfa260c0708082113q73b18fd2x76e0dc73735e1d5f@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070809060412.GA16686@us.netrek.org>
	<ecfa260c0708090022i5e569c37n67b0f512f8113da3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070809074642.GA21016@us.netrek.org>

On Thu, Aug 09, 2007 at 03:22:44AM -0400, Zach wrote:
> Sorry I thought since we already discussed it on list everyone knew
> what the diff was I was sending.

Think of those who read the archives later, who are looking for, say, a
patch to fix compilation problems on BRMH.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From netrek at gmail.com  Thu Aug  9 03:09:11 2007
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 04:09:11 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] diff
In-Reply-To: <20070809074642.GA21016@us.netrek.org>
References: <ecfa260c0708082113q73b18fd2x76e0dc73735e1d5f@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070809060412.GA16686@us.netrek.org>
	<ecfa260c0708090022i5e569c37n67b0f512f8113da3@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070809074642.GA21016@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0708090109y2323e295l94307353a0fd7fca@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/9/07, James Cameron <quozl at us.netrek.org> wrote:
>
> Think of those who read the archives later, who are looking for, say, a
> patch to fix compilation problems on BRMH.

Ah ok.

Zach


From netrek at gmail.com  Thu Aug  9 03:16:04 2007
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 04:16:04 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] build fixes to the BRMH 2.4.0 tarball from
	http://ftp.netrek.org/pub/netrek/clients/brmh/src/BRMH-2.4.0.tar.gz
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0708090116v3f155017xcf8d1db4c9d83bb7@mail.gmail.com>

Only in brmh-2.4.0/: BRMH-2.4.0-CHANGELOG
diff -u -r /tmp/brmh-2.4.0/data.h brmh-2.4.0/data.h
--- /tmp/brmh-2.4.0/data.h      2000-02-17 00:48:05.000000000 -0500
+++ brmh-2.4.0/data.h   2007-08-04 18:07:02.000000000 -0400
@@ -270,9 +270,7 @@

 extern struct rank ranks[NUMRANKS];

-extern W_Window messagew, w, mapw, statwin, baseWin, infow, iconWin,
tstatw, war,
-                warnw, helpWin, teamWin[4], qwin, messwa, messwt,
messwi, messwk,
-                planetw, rankw, playerw, optionWin, reviewWin,
waitWin, metaWin;
+extern W_Window messagew, w, mapw, statwin, baseWin, infow, iconWin,
tstatw, war, warnw, helpWin, teamWin[4], qwin, messwa, messwt, messwi,
messwk, planetw, rankw, playerw, optionWin, reviewWin, waitWin,
metaWin;
 #ifdef XTREKRC_HELP
 extern W_Window        defWin;
 #endif
@@ -407,8 +405,8 @@

 extern char    *defaults_file;

-extern char            *metaserver;
-extern int      metaport;
+static char            *metaserver;
+static int      metaport;

 extern char    *plist;
 extern int     list_needs_stats;
diff -u -r /tmp/brmh-2.4.0/distress.h brmh-2.4.0/distress.h
--- /tmp/brmh-2.4.0/distress.h  2000-01-13 14:56:55.000000000 -0500
+++ brmh-2.4.0/distress.h       2007-08-04 17:51:10.000000000 -0400
@@ -4,7 +4,7 @@
  * distress.h
  */
 #include "copyright.h"
-
+#include "dmacro.h"

 #ifndef _in_distress_c_

@@ -93,12 +93,4 @@
    text is null terminated and the last thing in this distress
  */

-struct dmacro_list
-{
-    char c;
-    char *name;
-    char *macro;
-};
-
-
 #endif /* _distress_h_ */
Only in brmh-2.4.0/: dmacro.h
diff -u -r /tmp/brmh-2.4.0/findslot.c brmh-2.4.0/findslot.c
--- /tmp/brmh-2.4.0/findslot.c  2000-01-13 14:56:55.000000000 -0500
+++ brmh-2.4.0/findslot.c       2007-08-04 17:54:50.000000000 -0400
@@ -54,7 +54,7 @@
 static int                in = 0;
 static int                toggle;

-static W_Window                   qwin, countWin, motdButtonWin, waitIcon;
+W_Window                  qwin, countWin, motdButtonWin, waitIcon;

 static void
 destroyWait()
Only in brmh-2.4.0/: Makefile
diff -u -r /tmp/brmh-2.4.0/Manifest brmh-2.4.0/Manifest
--- /tmp/brmh-2.4.0/Manifest    2000-02-17 00:48:05.000000000 -0500
+++ brmh-2.4.0/Manifest 2007-07-25 01:32:08.000000000 -0400
@@ -5,7 +5,6 @@
 INSTALL
 Imakefile
 MACRO.DOC
-Makefile
 Manifest
 Netrek.rules
 Netrek.tmpl
@@ -14,6 +13,20 @@
 Wlib.h
 bd.c
 bitmaps/
+ \a.g.x_bitmaps
+ \bitmaps.h
+ \borg
+ \clockbitmap.h
+ \cursors.h
+ \dynshipbitmaps.h
+ \icon.h
+ \ind_starbase
+ \miscbitmaps.h
+ \moobitmaps.h
+ \oldbitmaps.h
+ \puck
+ \shieldbitmaps.h
+ \shipbitmaps.h
 bitmaps.c
 bitmapstuff.h
 brmh-dashboard.c
@@ -76,13 +89,6 @@
 reserved.c
 rint.c
 rotate.c
-rsa/
-rsa_box.c@
-rsa_box_0.c@
-rsa_box_1.c@
-rsa_box_2.c@
-rsa_box_3.c@
-rsa_box_4.c@
 sintab.c
 smessage.c
 socket.c
diff -u -r /tmp/brmh-2.4.0/metaserver.c brmh-2.4.0/metaserver.c
--- /tmp/brmh-2.4.0/metaserver.c        2000-01-13 14:56:56.000000000 -0500
+++ brmh-2.4.0/metaserver.c     2007-08-04 18:06:38.000000000 -0400
@@ -57,7 +57,7 @@
    int             RSA_client;
 };

-static char    *metaserver = "metaserver.ecst.csuchico.edu";
+static char    *metaserver = "metaserver.us.netrek.org";
 static int      metaport = 3521;
 static struct servers *serverlist;
 static int      num_servers;
Only in brmh-2.4.0/: netrek
Only in brmh-2.4.0/: randomize
Only in brmh-2.4.0/: rsa_box_0.c
Only in brmh-2.4.0/: rsa_box_1.c
Only in brmh-2.4.0/: rsa_box_2.c
Only in brmh-2.4.0/: rsa_box_3.c
Only in brmh-2.4.0/: rsa_box_4.c
Only in brmh-2.4.0/: rsa_box.c


From karthik at karthik.com  Thu Aug  9 11:52:58 2007
From: karthik at karthik.com (Karthik Arumugham)
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 12:52:58 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] build fixes to the BRMH 2.4.0 tarball from
	http://ftp.netrek.org/pub/netrek/clients/brmh/src/BRMH-2.4.0.tar.gz
In-Reply-To: <ecfa260c0708090116v3f155017xcf8d1db4c9d83bb7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ecfa260c0708090116v3f155017xcf8d1db4c9d83bb7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <43A613C8-9316-46C5-ABB6-F0F0715E2F68@karthik.com>

Compilation fixes have already been applied to my BRMH 2.5.0 dev tree  
some time ago. There are several other fixes that are not in your  
diff (and your diff is likely to break some functionality by removing  
static variables.) There are a few feature additions as well, most  
notably improved sorting for the playerlist.

BRMH is not current under version control. I would be happy to send  
you a tarball and/or blessed beta binary of 2.5.0. I will put it  
under version control at some point in the future.


From netrek at gmail.com  Thu Aug  9 15:40:19 2007
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 16:40:19 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] build fixes to the BRMH 2.4.0 tarball from
	http://ftp.netrek.org/pub/netrek/clients/brmh/src/BRMH-2.4.0.tar.gz
In-Reply-To: <43A613C8-9316-46C5-ABB6-F0F0715E2F68@karthik.com>
References: <ecfa260c0708090116v3f155017xcf8d1db4c9d83bb7@mail.gmail.com>
	<43A613C8-9316-46C5-ABB6-F0F0715E2F68@karthik.com>
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0708091340l12f7e958x8ff984025d7e7c63@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/9/07, Karthik Arumugham <karthik at karthik.com> wrote:
> Compilation fixes have already been applied to my BRMH 2.5.0 dev tree
> some time ago. There are several other fixes that are not in your
> diff (and your diff is likely to break some functionality by removing
> static variables.) There are a few feature additions as well, most
> notably improved sorting for the playerlist.

Ah I see.

> BRMH is not current under version control. I would be happy to send
> you a tarball and/or blessed beta binary of 2.5.0. I will put it
> under version control at some point in the future.

If you could send me a tarball that would be great, thanks.

Zach


From regrado at web.de  Sun Aug 12 10:15:27 2007
From: regrado at web.de (Rado S)
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 17:15:27 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] Call for feedback from: James Cameron
In-Reply-To: <20070718094543.GD3333@us.netrek.org>
References: <20070530184118.GE4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070531010558.GA8430@us.netrek.org>
	<20070617132312.GE4720@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070617230739.GA4664@us.netrek.org>
	<20070619194339.GI21040@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070620000202.GA4060@us.netrek.org>
	<20070716183818.GC12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718094543.GD3333@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <20070812151526.GA4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- James Cameron wrote on Wed 18.Jul'07 at 19:45:43 +1000 -=

> I've' lost the context of this discussion thread, and was unable
> to recover the context from what you sent. Could you please ask
> the question again?

Here the open questions, answer in separate posts if you prefer
answers from me that way, too:
------

- Once people don't react to requests addressed to the general
	public in the flow of the list traffic (see reference to
	April in "how the director idea started"), how to engage
	specific people's interest to respond publicly?

- What's the function of the netrek council?
- Why not publicly (wiki, www?) declare it and its members when it started?

- You recommended "You should review the list of resources on the Wiki."
	When reading it, I saw "people in charge", but missed "the
	council".
	Will you (council) add it for completeness?

- I've listed Carlos as meta-service owner only, you said there is
	also FAQ + keyserver on Carlos' meta-server but also other
	meta-servers.
	- how to reach the FAQ on the meta-server? Who maintains it?
		(the FAQ isn't listed in ServicesList)
	- what other services are on other meta-servers besides
		game server list?

- I listed as owners of SF project: Dave, Kurt, James, Carlos, Bob.
	To which you stated "No, see the project definition on SF."
	- what exactly should I look for? I copied the "admin" list
	from there, or what "definition" do you mean?

- "Client blessing is pointless, since we have not TCA."
	What is TCA?
	When it's pointless, why require or even check for
	registered clients on "continuum"?
		(or are metas reporting wrong R flag?)
	R: "Means that this server supports (and may REQUIRE) RSA validation."

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From regrado at web.de  Sun Aug 12 10:22:28 2007
From: regrado at web.de (Rado S)
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 17:22:28 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] Call for feedback from: James Cameron
In-Reply-To: <20070718094322.GC3333@us.netrek.org>
References: <20070530184118.GE4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070531010558.GA8430@us.netrek.org>
	<20070617132312.GE4720@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070617230739.GA4664@us.netrek.org>
	<20070619194339.GI21040@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<65631e800706201201n523763eetabbd9a59cd51f3d7@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070716183753.GB12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718094322.GC3333@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <20070812152228.GB4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- James Cameron wrote on Wed 18.Jul'07 at 19:43:22 +1000 -=

> On Mon, Jul 16, 2007 at 08:37:53PM +0200, Rado S wrote:
> > I can't help it that issues put in simple words don't mean the
> > same for everybody and therefore need clarification, but also
> > need patience and attention on the receiving/ requesting side
> > when given.
> 
> You can help it. It is your responsibility as well as ours. Simple
> words do not have a common meaning. But it takes more round trips
> during communication than you have been willing to give.

What makes you believe I'm not willing to do what it takes to
clarify things? Afterall, I'm still asking and answering.

> By batching your replies you make this clarification impractical.
> Limit yourself to small doses of communication, regularly. You
> must learn the words to use, and the only way to do that is to
> correct your words.

Correction is fine, if it's explicit and lead by good example.

Small doses, regularly: this can be a problem when I miss the
activity time of a thread and then people lose focus on what matter
but get lost in off-topic stuff.

When I couldn't follow live, I wanted to speed up the catching up to
sustain the general momentum of current activity, so I gave
explanations or detail in advance, so you wouldn't have to ask that
even later.

> > > Volunteer your efforts in something as a method of building
> > > credibility.
> > 
> > I thought I had as far as it was possible ... and time
> > permitted, currently too busy to even respond faster.
> 
> If you are too busy, then leave this task for later, otherwise in
> your haste you may hurt yourself.

I've always _taken_ my time exactly to avoid damage (to anyone).
That's the reason why things have become as slow and big as they
were.
 How can I make up for taking my time without making answers bigger
or giving them in "batched" mode to catch up what came in the
meantime?

Speed, size, frequency, thought: which of them to sacrifice in
favour of the others? What serves the cause of timely but satisfying
results better?
 I can't go faster (respond live when you "6-12 hours +/- off
people" wake up and get together) in general, but also I was
exceptionally busy in the past 2+ months, so even catching up
afterwards was delayed. (in April, when the issue (re-)started, I
had more time, but this changed soon thereafter)

You want small + often (correlating to fast) because it suits your
daily routine. I can't (couldn't) provide that.
Independent of that, I prefer reasoned responses, which can often
mean the opposite of fast.

Too many + big is bad for you, too fast + emotional/ spontaneous is
bad for me, because the issue requires longterm consideration, not
what suits just now.

Whatever I do, it is wrong for you, because I don't happen to have
the same activity cycle as you have (had).
 How can we get together then, without losing even more time for
split and stretched discussion, possibly losing focus/ context/
interest because it takes too long?

In "how the director idea started" you gave the answer to what
happens when it's stretched too far without carrying over the
context in bigger posts: you keep forgetting what it was about.

You once said you'd like things to change. But only when it's not
you who has to change?
(I mean that for posting style as well as netrek management)
How else should changes in general happen when not at the source of
power and direction?

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From regrado at web.de  Sun Aug 12 10:26:52 2007
From: regrado at web.de (Rado S)
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 17:26:52 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] James dictator != James director?!
In-Reply-To: <20070718095337.GE3333@us.netrek.org>
References: <20070716183918.GD12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718095337.GE3333@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <20070812152651.GC4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- James Cameron wrote on Wed 18.Jul'07 at 19:53:37 +1000 -=

> On Mon, Jul 16, 2007 at 08:39:19PM +0200, Rado S wrote:
> > > { client, server, community hats }
> > ... but at the same time you reject responsiblity and commitment
> > to pick up or establish an official representative role [...]
> 
> Yes, I reject any responsibility to you to pick up or establish an
> official representative role.

That's not to only me, but all of netrek.
You wear those hats of power, but don't want to be taken responsible
for what "netrek" is, or have somebody do it for you?

Is "netrek" for you a game framework that you just happen to use in
one flavour for yourself (and those who happen to like yours), or a
clearly defined set of rules to mean 1 ("the") game for all (with
likewise clearly defined "mods" like hockey, paradise, ...)?
 (or what else?)

In the former case such a role makes no sense for "the game", but
likewise wouldn't be necessary since "borg" and other name calling
is pointless then, because there wouldn't be such a thing like "the
game".

By now, I guess I know _your_ answer, but that question is
unanswered by the rest of the list of resource holders.
(or in general by the community at large)

> Not sure what you mean by commitment, but I guess you meant "lack
> commitment".

... not just lack, but reject it for this purpose? If it were only
lack, that could be changed, but you deny that change by conviction
on the matter rather than antipathy for my way of bringing it up,
right?
Or is it just because of antipathy?

> Then you go on to define the role:
> 
> > to respond to requests as needed, make judgement calls more
> > explicit and public to establish a "conforming client + server"
> > system (technical and social) to extend your fairness to _all_
> > users independent of their client?
> 
> It would involve quite a lot of work and challenge. The role would
> be sociological and political. Have you anyone available to fill
> this role? The role does not interest me.

Fine, I never claimed that the owners are the only possible.
I even suggested others to be the active part in their place.
I just considered them the 1st choice -- if they wanted such a role
to exist at all (independent of who'd run it) -- to make reaction
times between decisions and resources shorter.

> Maybe you should ask Zach?

I don't mind anyone doing it, as long as there is a big picture
leading it (consistency), publicity and activity (to provide
"fairness" within and across netrek styles).

But the role makes no sense without backup by the owners to support
and realize decisions, even if unpopular at 1st (by perception of
noise, not necessarily by number of people and relevance of reasons).

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From regrado at web.de  Sun Aug 12 10:33:06 2007
From: regrado at web.de (Rado S)
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 17:33:06 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] client control
In-Reply-To: <20070718100335.GH3333@us.netrek.org>
References: <20070701152220.GE5800@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070702054513.GB10191@us.netrek.org>
	<20070716184058.GI12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718100335.GH3333@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <20070812153306.GD4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- James Cameron wrote on Wed 18.Jul'07 at 20:03:35 +1000 -=

> > > I'd prefer to have simpletons rather than experts, attempting
> > > to cheat, since it will be more obvious and detectable on
> > > average.
> > 
> > A game cheater with open access to the code doesn't require
> > hacker qualities.
> 
> If by hacker you mean expert, then yes, that is true.

My mistake, I rather meant expert in overcoming protections.
When it's already open, you don't need that expertise.

> > How would the cheating differ between experts and simpletons
> > (among cheaters or hackers)? For example an aim or dodge
> > correction (copying from the bots).
> 
> It would differ in complexity.

With above clarification: somebody good at overcoming protections
need not be a good games cheater, and vice versa.
 With an already open game it only requires somebody with good
knowledge about the game mechanics to make a hard to detect borg.
 So you wouldn't gain anything for detecting it more easily by
leaving it open.

> > > By lowering the threshold it makes it easier to notice
> > > cheating.
> > 
> > And then do what?
> 
> Eject, ban, ridicule, post multi-line macros, or avoid.

a) Per above, it wouldn't necessarily be easier.

b) Once it's too hard to discover by game mechanics, you've either
	lost or need technical thresholds.

c) This is a list of social and political counter measures, yet you
	said in other thread about the "director role":

> It would involve quite a lot of work and challenge. The role would
> be sociological and political. Have you anyone available to fill
> this role? The role does not interest me.

This sounds exactly what you suggest now, no?
So why not act as director ahead of time, or would you in fact
_not_ apply your given list when it really happened, because you
wouldn't be interested then in it either?

Again, I'd like to know what the _others_ in charge think about such
a social mechanism to avoid cheating in advance.

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From regrado at web.de  Sun Aug 12 10:35:53 2007
From: regrado at web.de (Rado S)
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 17:35:53 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] RSA future
In-Reply-To: <20070718101116.GI3333@us.netrek.org>
References: <20070716184127.GK12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718101116.GI3333@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <20070812153553.GE4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- James Cameron wrote on Wed 18.Jul'07 at 20:11:16 +1000 -=

> On Mon, Jul 16, 2007 at 08:41:27PM +0200, Rado S wrote:
> >  Allowing authors also to bless leaves it up to whom to decide what
> > "legal" netrek is? Based on what? The loudest "borg" shouters?
> 
> Back when RSA was in heavy use, the loudest shouters were indeed
> those who set the policy. Which in the absence of a social
> mechanism or leadership, or deliberative assembly, is how any
> group behaves. Only if such a social mechanism works can the
> technical mechanism have any significant effect.

Right.
That's why I asked for this social organization.
If it exists, to take action.
If it doesn't, to create it.

To which you said "let's have it", but later "I won't do it nor
surrender to/ support it".
 Which is fine, you're not obliged nor required as long as you let
others try, but you considered it as attack against you:
 won't do yourself, but neither let others?

And the other people "in charge" didn't even react at all for a long
time (some still haven't).

Which way to go? Or just stay where we are?
I'm tired of the "borg" shouters crossfire and general "my game is
the only that counts, do away with everything else" attitude while
nobody declares what this one game is and takes action to quiet the
noise.

I prefer to have "noise" (in the sense of public official
announcements) by a well defined leadership rather than by some
random, small, occasionally irrational mob.

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From regrado at web.de  Sun Aug 12 10:51:41 2007
From: regrado at web.de (Rado S)
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 17:51:41 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] creating netrek authority
In-Reply-To: <20070721002147.GB5517@us.netrek.org>
	<20070720202859.GB25092@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <20070702054823.GC10191@us.netrek.org>
	<20070716184002.GF12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718095721.GG3333@us.netrek.org>
	<20070720202859.GB25092@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070721002147.GB5517@us.netrek.org>
	<20070701152440.GF5800@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070702054823.GC10191@us.netrek.org>
	<20070716184002.GF12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718095721.GG3333@us.netrek.org>
	<20070720202859.GB25092@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <20070812155141.GF4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- James Cameron wrote on Wed 18.Jul'07 at 19:57:21 +1000 -=

> > - How has the organisation changed to establish an authority to
> > define netrek and control approved clients?
> 
> Four of us agreed to begin to set policy.
> { ... }
> I don't have the exact date, is it important?
> { ... }
>
> > - Where/ what/ who is the authority that has appeared since then?
> 
> Carlos, Dave, Karthik and myself, in private communication.

=- James Cameron wrote on Sat 21.Jul'07 at 10:21:47 +1000 -=

> On Fri, Jul 20, 2007 at 10:28:59PM +0200, Rado S wrote:
> > Need not be exact to the minute, but day, week, month, yes,
> > because if it was made public by one of you at some point in
> > _any_ way, I'd like to track down _how_ I missed that.
> 
> You weren't watching, apparently. It was mentioned in #netrek.
> Keep reading those logs.

"It was mentioned...", have _you_ said this? To me, when I asked you
and I responded to it?
Or is somebody speaking for you? Or the council?

Given the noise that happens on #netrek and that I haven't been
always present physically or technically, you'd have to tell me the
exact date or week at least.

> > If it wasn't made public, why not?
> 
> Well, firstly, I can't speak for the council, so I can't announce
> the existence of the council, it would have to be a motion of the
> council to do so.

But when it comes to matters belonging to the council's area of
concern you're fast (and often the only one) to respond.
You're very public, you'd be a good representative for netrek or the
council.

Then please suggest some way to make the council more public in its
functionality. How to interact with the council when it's secret and
no speaker in their name known?
What benefit has a _secret_ council when public requests need public
responses?

> Secondly, even if I did want to bypass that process, the last
> thing I'd want to do is tell *you*.

So... you haven't told me before?!
Nothing has changed, a secret council doesn't serve the public
community with regard to direction and noise control.

> Now that I've seen how you respond, this confirms my hesitation.

Respond to what, how?
What was bad about my reactions given your responses?

> You'd have to ask the council these questions. They aren't
> interesting enough for me to bring them to council.

You are aware that you listed yourself as member of the council?
Even though I acknowledge that you don't speak for the whole
council, you can speak for yourself; when asked as member it's your
turn to answer anyway: are you for or against a public speaker and
message process to declare the council's purpose and publish
decision progress?

The others can answer for themselves when asked; no worries, I can
distinguish that.

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From regrado at web.de  Sun Aug 12 10:57:42 2007
From: regrado at web.de (Rado S)
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 17:57:42 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] how the "director" idea started
In-Reply-To: <20070718095527.GF3333@us.netrek.org>
References: <20070701154925.GH5800@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070702060847.GF10191@us.netrek.org>
	<20070716183935.GE12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718095527.GF3333@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <20070812155742.GG4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- James Cameron wrote on Wed 18.Jul'07 at 19:55:27 +1000 -=

> > Don't ask for something when you don't want to deal with the answer.
> > Especially don't use the form you later complain about.
> 
> Sorry, but I don't remember the question now.

I quoted it for reference in the beginning of this subthread not too
long ago. You wanted to know my definitions for some terms/ words I
used, to which I gave answers with more questions from me, but to
which you refused to answer because of the posting style (which you
had used to ask me 1st).
 This "refresh" subthread isn't as long + old as the original,
should have been easy to find in the archive, if you don't have a
local copy anymore.

But you shouldn't have forgotten the following points of my previous
posts in this subthread to which you responded so cut off above,
because they need some clarification in the light of your latest
post to the thread "Need help with security vulnerability in Vanilla
server".

My question in the previous message [with edited parts]:

------ QUOTE BEGIN ------
> > do you refuse changes because you _can't_ (low on time) or
> > because you don't _want_ to change your habits (keep own
> > [current] trek commitment level low)? [...]
> > 
> > > Communication is the responsibility of both parties; the 
> > > transmitter and receiver. If you think otherwise, then your
> > > communication will be ignored.
> > 
> > Correct. It was not my fault alone, yet you refuse to respond at
> > least _your way_ (since you don't like mine).
------- QUOTE END -------

Your introduction line in that other post:

------ QUOTE BEGIN ------
> Warning: composite reply to multiple posts.
------- QUOTE END -------

... and then you do it "my way": big, combined post.
This means: you _can_ change.

But what's different now?
Why didn't you respond your preferred immediate and "split up" way
as that thread came in?
Why can't you handle my posts when they are in the same form?

======

If you haven't read the big original one before, FYI:
- "Thanks for the vote of confidence in our services. I take this as an attack."
	At first I thought "no, _you_ shouldn't feel attacked,
	because the request was not directed at you as much as the others".
	But then ... if you feel that way ... then something must be
	wrong and has been wrong all along.
	Even though I still don't mean to attack anyone to do harm,
	I actually mean to make people think and maybe change.
	If this equates to attack, then I'm sorry you see it that way.

- You asked me
	"When? Cite reference. Give link to archive"
	when I explained that the personalized "dead line" summary
	request was only a consequence of a previous general attempt
	to get responses from the -- until then -- unconfirmed
	"people in charge".
	
	I recovered the reference: 
	Message-ID: <20070409133505.GA25175 at sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 15:35:05 +0200
	Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek organisation (all resource owners please read)

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Sun Aug 12 18:13:17 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 09:13:17 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] client control
In-Reply-To: <20070812153306.GD4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <20070701152220.GE5800@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070702054513.GB10191@us.netrek.org>
	<20070716184058.GI12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718100335.GH3333@us.netrek.org>
	<20070812153306.GD4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <20070812231317.GA3940@us.netrek.org>

On Sun, Aug 12, 2007 at 05:33:06PM +0200, Rado S wrote:
> =- James Cameron wrote on Wed 18.Jul'07 at 20:03:35 +1000 -=
> > It would involve quite a lot of work and challenge. The role would
> > be sociological and political. Have you anyone available to fill
> > this role? The role does not interest me.
> 
> This sounds exactly what you suggest now, no?
> So why not act as director ahead of time, or would you in fact
> _not_ apply your given list when it really happened, because you
> wouldn't be interested then in it either?

Why not act as director ahead of time?  Uninteresting task, lack of
clear success of the task, impossible to achieve technically.  You're
right, I would not be interested in it.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From mark at mark.mielke.cc  Sun Aug 12 18:29:52 2007
From: mark at mark.mielke.cc (Mark Mielke)
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 19:29:52 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] RSA future
In-Reply-To: <20070812153553.GE4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <20070716184127.GK12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>	<20070718101116.GI3333@us.netrek.org>
	<20070812153553.GE4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <46BF97F0.4020507@mark.mielke.cc>

Rado:

If I understand your intent, as split over many different message threads:

Your concern and your feelings are not unique. Once upon a time, many 
years ago, there was a major break between the people who wanted to keep 
the standard Netrek rules + feel. Status quo if you wish. Others wanted 
to make the game all new with huge extensions. This became the birth of 
Netrek Paradise.

The source is open - you can do what you will. Nobody can stop you.

But, if you want to change the existing game, as maintained by the 
existing maintainers, you are going to have to deal with the fact that 
precedents have already been set, and expectations already exist. I saw 
you claim something to the effect of "this game is not your game - this 
is all of our game." The same applies in reverse, Rado. This game is not 
your game - this is all of our game. The community has put trust in the 
current people "in power", and there is little you can do about it.

Cheers,
mark

-- 
Mark Mielke <mark at mielke.cc>


From mark at mark.mielke.cc  Sun Aug 12 18:54:17 2007
From: mark at mark.mielke.cc (Mark Mielke)
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 19:54:17 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] creating netrek authority
In-Reply-To: <20070812155141.GF4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <20070702054823.GC10191@us.netrek.org>	<20070716184002.GF12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>	<20070718095721.GG3333@us.netrek.org>	<20070720202859.GB25092@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>	<20070721002147.GB5517@us.netrek.org>	<20070701152440.GF5800@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>	<20070702054823.GC10191@us.netrek.org>	<20070716184002.GF12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>	<20070718095721.GG3333@us.netrek.org>	<20070720202859.GB25092@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070812155141.GF4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <46BF9DA9.8010106@mark.mielke.cc>

Rado S wrote:
> [To James:] But when it comes to matters belonging to the council's area of
> concern you're fast (and often the only one) to respond.
> You're very public, you'd be a good representative for netrek or the
> council.
>
> Then please suggest some way to make the council more public in its
> functionality. How to interact with the council when it's secret and
> no speaker in their name known?
> What benefit has a _secret_ council when public requests need public
> responses?
I think you are showing some confusion over how organizations of many 
sorts function. I am going to provide some details for you to consider.

A friend of mine, who is a free mason would say: The organization has 
secrets. The organization is not secret. :-)

I am a board member of a member-owned organization called the National 
Capital FreeNet. As a board member, we keep secrets both for the 
benefits of the organization, and due to government requirements. For 
example, discussions regarding the salary of our Executive Director, or 
firing an employee are held "in camera", and not open to "the public". 
Other examples are strategy meetings, or meetings where the board will 
agree on a stance to have as a board with one voice. The practice of 
having secrets is normal to most organizations whether public or private.

At our meetings throughout the year, we try to invite the public, but 
there is no guarantee that the public will be allowed to speak. It is up 
to the chair person to decide whether or not to acknowledge questions 
raised from the floor. Members of an organization must now confuse their 
membership as a right to speak. We offer members the right to speak in 
the yearly AGM (annual general meeting). At this time, the members are 
invited to nominate candidates to be their representatives, and to elect 
the representatives that will serve them. General members do NOT have 
the right to speak. They have the right to elect representatives. If 
their representatives fail to serve them, they can gather sufficient 
support to have a representative evicted, or they can wait until the 
term ends and elect somebody else instead. This is much like the 
government. You can vote George Bush in. If he does things you don't 
like, there isn't much you can do except wait until his term is up and 
elect somebody else.

What rights do you believe you have? If your primary argument is that 
you do not understand how a "secret" council can provide value, your 
argument has no weight. Councils can serve members both in public and in 
secret, but often both. See the minutes from any meetings and see how 
they can be read in 5 minutes or less, for a meeting that took 60 
minutes or more to complete. What happened to the other minutes? Where 
are all the subtleties? What of all the inside jokes that were cut, 
because they might be offensive or misconstrued? These are all 
"secrets". Stuff that the minute taker didn't feel you needed to know.

In terms of Netrek - I wasn't aware that any official Netrek 
organization or committee existed. I don't think the name is 
trademarked, and I don't think there is any official entity, whether a 
person, or a business, who *owns* Netrek. There are copyrights from the 
last two decades that cover the works that make the source code 
available for nearly any use you wish. As such, I would say that you 
have many rights. Which also means that James, and the "secret council" 
also have many rights. In particular, just as *you* have the right to 
collect a few like minded people, meet at a bar, and discuss the future 
of Netrek, so do they have this same right. There is no requirement that 
they provide location and time to all players at least 5 business days 
in advance. There is no requirement that they ask your opinion.

In most open source movements, maintained by individuals who are 
primarily motivated by personal pride, the "leaders" are usually the 
people who step up to the plate, who are accepted amongst their peers. 
James has this authority. He stepped up. He is accepted. I accept him, 
and find myself offended by statements you have made about him that hint 
at malicious intent. If James and a few other share this respect, and 
elect to meet amongst themselves in private, they are fully within their 
right to do so *without* condemnation from you.

This is your rights: 1) You can continue to email people. I would 
suggest using a more respectful tone in order to maximize effectiveness. 
2) You can branch netrek, and see who jumps ship with you. If you really 
do know what you are talking about, you should be able to get a large 
enough base to move with you, and you can invent something like Netrek 
Paradise. Call it Rado Netrek. Whatever you wish. You remain fully 
empowered whichever route you take.

Good luck.

Cheers,
mark

-- 
Mark Mielke <mark at mielke.cc>


From regrado at web.de  Mon Aug 13 13:50:52 2007
From: regrado at web.de (Rado S)
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 20:50:52 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] RSA future
In-Reply-To: <46BF97F0.4020507@mark.mielke.cc>
References: <20070716184127.GK12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718101116.GI3333@us.netrek.org>
	<20070812153553.GE4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<46BF97F0.4020507@mark.mielke.cc>
Message-ID: <20070813185052.GB9144@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- Mark Mielke wrote on Sun 12.Aug'07 at 19:29:52 -0400 -=

> Your concern and your feelings are not unique.

I guess so.

> { change game }
> This became the birth of Netrek Paradise.
> The source is open - you can do what you will. Nobody can stop
> you.

I'm already happy with Paradise, and I _don't_ want to _change_
Netrek (any).
 I want to know what Netrek (_any_) is, so better to judge what to
make of comments like "borg" and "other games stink and should be
vanquished": ignore because irrelevant or consider and find
solutions, or at least the interests of the powers if there can't be
a 100% safe technical solution (as James requires for client control).

> But, if you want to change the existing game, as maintained by the
> existing maintainers, you are going to have to deal with the fact
> that precedents have already been set, and expectations already
> exist.

No, I don't want to change the game itself. Even if, I wouldn't know
because I don't know what the game is.
I want to change the treatment of it around it once I know what the
game is or the powers' interests/ desires/ commitments in it.

> I saw you claim something to the effect of "this game is not your
> game - this is all of our game."

If I claimed that, then I'm sorry, didn't mean that, but rather to
ask: Is this "your" or "everybody's" game?
If it's yours, be happy with, and I'll be happy with mine.
If it's ours, let's see how to deal with it together.

> This game is not your game - this is all of our game. The
> community has put trust in the current people "in power", and
> there is little you can do about it.

I could (and even want to) trust them, if I knew what they are up to
and why they (don't) react as they do when I hoped for some reaction
from them, or some record of decisions to read up if I missed them.
Trust doesn't come from thin air. Oral agreements (or technical
equivalent of modern times like IRC or in-game chat or private
discussion) fade away or aren't even publicly known at all when
complaints are (re-)raised.

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From regrado at web.de  Mon Aug 13 14:45:10 2007
From: regrado at web.de (Rado S)
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 21:45:10 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] creating netrek authority
In-Reply-To: <46BF9DA9.8010106@mark.mielke.cc>
References: <20070718095721.GG3333@us.netrek.org>
	<20070720202859.GB25092@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070721002147.GB5517@us.netrek.org>
	<20070701152440.GF5800@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070702054823.GC10191@us.netrek.org>
	<20070716184002.GF12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718095721.GG3333@us.netrek.org>
	<20070720202859.GB25092@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070812155141.GF4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<46BF9DA9.8010106@mark.mielke.cc>
Message-ID: <20070813194509.GC9144@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- Mark Mielke wrote on Sun 12.Aug'07 at 19:54:17 -0400 -=

> I think you are showing some confusion over how organizations of
> many sorts function. I am going to provide some details for you to
> consider.

Thank you very much, you mostly (if not completely) matched my view
on that.

> A friend of mine, who is a free mason would say: The organization
> has secrets. The organization is not secret. :-)

As for "the council": it was. It didn't exist or wasn't mentioned
when I began requesting definition and authority (and possibly
control), but as you can read, it appeared in the meantime without a
notice, which would have silenced me quickly.

> As a board member, we keep secrets both for the benefits of the
> organization, and due to government requirements.
> {internals vs. public affairs}
> Other examples are strategy meetings, or meetings where the board
> will agree on a stance to have as a board with one voice.

Right.
Now, what qualifies for public interest?
I thought a stance on "borg" definition and treatment of its usage
or complaints about it would apply.
Are Paradise (or any) clients considered borg and should be changed
for Netrek?
Does anyone care enough to control it (socially or technically)?

You know, despite being a Paradiser primarily, I still love to play
the simple old game, too, but wouldn't want to be denied because my
client is clienta-non-grata, or spammed by purist fanatics trying to
fight off socially what they can't have technically: monopoly of
game style.

> At our meetings throughout the year, we try to invite the public,
> but there is no guarantee that the public will be allowed to speak.
> {...}
> Members of an organization must no[t] confuse their membership as
> a right to speak.

I want to hear/ read first what is there before I can/ want to speak.
But when there is nothing...?

> See the minutes from any meetings and see how they can be read in
> 5 minutes or less, for a meeting that took 60 minutes or more to
> complete. What happened to the other minutes? Where are all the
> subtleties? What of all the inside jokes that were cut, because
> they might be offensive or misconstrued? These are all "secrets".
> Stuff that the minute taker didn't feel you needed to know.

... and I don't want to know _that_!
But I want to see those 5 minutes!
I haven't seen any 1 of it yet.
Or if there was, there are still some ignoring it and complaining
about the passivity of the "council" but for opposite reasons than
mine.

> In terms of Netrek - I wasn't aware that any official Netrek
> organization or committee existed.

I wasn't looking for a legal entity, but real persons making real
decisions and taking real action on it, for everybody to know and
shut up so to find their own way: with or without the council.
But this clearity hasn't become real yet.

> {...} and I don't think there is any official entity, whether a
> person, or a business, who *owns* Netrek.

But the resources the current community runs on.
And the place/ name they run in/ under to be found easily.

> Which also means that James, and the "secret council" also have
> many rights. In particular, just as *you* have the right to
> collect a few like minded people, meet at a bar, and discuss the
> future of Netrek, so do they have this same right.

I'm not denying that, just want to know what they are up to and
whether we can get/ stay together or not.

> There is no requirement that they provide location and time to all
> players at least 5 business days in advance. There is no
> requirement that they ask your opinion.

No, but their results and _their_ opinions would help already!

> James has this authority. {...} I accept him, and find myself
> offended by statements you have made about him that hint at
> malicious intent.

The problem is there was no intent at all to judge it.
Inactivity isn't malicious by itself, it just isn't useful.

> If James and a few other share this respect, and elect to meet
> amongst themselves in private, they are fully within their right
> to do so *without* condemnation from you.

I'm not condemning him at all, but if, it would not be for what he
does, but what he didn't do thereafter: make results public, since
they affect the public, even if only for the climate of treating
each other.

> I would suggest using a more respectful tone in order to maximize
> effectiveness.

If questions alone are disrespectful, I can't stop that.
It all developed from asking simple questions.
What, who, why not, how else?

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Mon Aug 13 23:51:30 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 14:51:30 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] how the "director" idea started
In-Reply-To: <20070812155742.GG4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <20070701154925.GH5800@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070702060847.GF10191@us.netrek.org>
	<20070716183935.GE12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718095527.GF3333@us.netrek.org>
	<20070812155742.GG4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <20070814045130.GB3469@us.netrek.org>

Okay.

On Sun, Aug 12, 2007 at 05:57:42PM +0200, Rado S wrote:
> =- James Cameron wrote on Wed 18.Jul'07 at 19:55:27 +1000 -=
> 
> > > Don't ask for something when you don't want to deal with the answer.
> > > Especially don't use the form you later complain about.
> > 
> > Sorry, but I don't remember the question now.
> 
> I quoted it for reference in the beginning of this subthread not too
> long ago. You wanted to know my definitions for some terms/ words I
> used, to which I gave answers with more questions from me, but to
> which you refused to answer because of the posting style (which you
> had used to ask me 1st).
>  This "refresh" subthread isn't as long + old as the original,
> should have been easy to find in the archive, if you don't have a
> local copy anymore.
> 
> But you shouldn't have forgotten the following points of my previous
> posts in this subthread to which you responded so cut off above,
> because they need some clarification in the light of your latest
> post to the thread "Need help with security vulnerability in Vanilla
> server".
> 
> My question in the previous message [with edited parts]:
> 
> ------ QUOTE BEGIN ------
> > > do you refuse changes because you _can't_ (low on time) or
> > > because you don't _want_ to change your habits (keep own
> > > [current] trek commitment level low)? [...]
> > > 
> > > > Communication is the responsibility of both parties; the 
> > > > transmitter and receiver. If you think otherwise, then your
> > > > communication will be ignored.
> > > 
> > > Correct. It was not my fault alone, yet you refuse to respond at
> > > least _your way_ (since you don't like mine).
> ------- QUOTE END -------
> 
> Your introduction line in that other post:
> 
> ------ QUOTE BEGIN ------
> > Warning: composite reply to multiple posts.
> ------- QUOTE END -------
> 
> ... and then you do it "my way": big, combined post.
> This means: you _can_ change.
> 
> But what's different now?
> Why didn't you respond your preferred immediate and "split up" way
> as that thread came in?
> Why can't you handle my posts when they are in the same form?
> 
> ======
> 
> If you haven't read the big original one before, FYI:
> - "Thanks for the vote of confidence in our services. I take this as an attack."
> 	At first I thought "no, _you_ shouldn't feel attacked,
> 	because the request was not directed at you as much as the others".
> 	But then ... if you feel that way ... then something must be
> 	wrong and has been wrong all along.
> 	Even though I still don't mean to attack anyone to do harm,
> 	I actually mean to make people think and maybe change.
> 	If this equates to attack, then I'm sorry you see it that way.
> 
> - You asked me
> 	"When? Cite reference. Give link to archive"
> 	when I explained that the personalized "dead line" summary
> 	request was only a consequence of a previous general attempt
> 	to get responses from the -- until then -- unconfirmed
> 	"people in charge".
> 	
> 	I recovered the reference: 
> 	Message-ID: <20070409133505.GA25175 at sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
> 	Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 15:35:05 +0200
> 	Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek organisation (all resource owners please read)
> 
> -- 
> ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Tue Aug 14 23:20:03 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 14:20:03 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] Call for feedback from: James Cameron
In-Reply-To: <20070812151526.GA4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <20070530184118.GE4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070531010558.GA8430@us.netrek.org>
	<20070617132312.GE4720@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070617230739.GA4664@us.netrek.org>
	<20070619194339.GI21040@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070620000202.GA4060@us.netrek.org>
	<20070716183818.GC12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718094543.GD3333@us.netrek.org>
	<20070812151526.GA4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <20070815042003.GA3526@us.netrek.org>

On Sun, Aug 12, 2007 at 05:15:27PM +0200, Rado S wrote:
> - Once people don't react to requests addressed to the general
> 	public in the flow of the list traffic (see reference to
> 	April in "how the director idea started"), how to engage
> 	specific people's interest to respond publicly?

It would depend on the person.  But as a general rule with volunteers,
you may need to give the right sort of information to motivate them to
respond.  If you find they are not responding, check to see if you are
doing the best you can - see How To Ask Questions The Smart Way.

http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

If you continue to get no response, then your request is just not
interesting enough.  Work to make it more interesting.

Do not attempt direct contact with specific people unless they have
invited you to do so.  There are several reasons for this, and you can
find some of them at http://pptpclient.sourceforge.net/why.phtml which
is what I give to people who write to me on that project instead of
posting to the mailing list.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Wed Aug 15 19:18:08 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 10:18:08 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] Call for feedback from: James Cameron
In-Reply-To: <20070812151526.GA4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <20070530184118.GE4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070531010558.GA8430@us.netrek.org>
	<20070617132312.GE4720@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070617230739.GA4664@us.netrek.org>
	<20070619194339.GI21040@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070620000202.GA4060@us.netrek.org>
	<20070716183818.GC12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718094543.GD3333@us.netrek.org>
	<20070812151526.GA4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <20070816001808.GB4904@us.netrek.org>

On Sun, Aug 12, 2007 at 05:15:27PM +0200, Rado S wrote:
> - What's the function of the netrek council?

I cannot tell you, you would have to ask the council.  I'm not empowered
to speak on behalf of the council in this way.

The council has not directly discussed function in deliberation, but
function has appeared as part of discussions on other subjects.

Also, the council has agreed to change name to Netrek Infrastructure
Team.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From regrado at web.de  Thu Aug 16 15:37:21 2007
From: regrado at web.de (Rado S)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 22:37:21 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] how the "director" idea started
In-Reply-To: <20070814045130.GB3469@us.netrek.org>
References: <20070701154925.GH5800@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070702060847.GF10191@us.netrek.org>
	<20070716183935.GE12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718095527.GF3333@us.netrek.org>
	<20070812155742.GG4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070814045130.GB3469@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <20070816203720.GE18473@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

Moin,

=- James Cameron wrote on Tue 14.Aug'07 at 14:51:30 +1000 -=

> Okay.

... to which of the points that you have quoted completely _below_
your own resonse? (which I abbreviated now)

- you did combined complex post yourself; when you do it, can you
	handle mine now, too, or is this just 1-way?

- "Thanks for the vote of confidence in our services. I take this as an attack."
	Even though I still don't mean to attack anyone to do harm,
	I actually mean to make people think and maybe change.
	If this equates to attack, then I'm sorry you see it that way.

- "When? Cite reference. Give link to archive"
	{ to general post preceding personal "dead-line" post }
	Link given.

- cut off signature:
	? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Thu Aug 16 20:45:47 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 11:45:47 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] Call for feedback from: James Cameron
In-Reply-To: <20070812151526.GA4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <20070530184118.GE4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070531010558.GA8430@us.netrek.org>
	<20070617132312.GE4720@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070617230739.GA4664@us.netrek.org>
	<20070619194339.GI21040@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070620000202.GA4060@us.netrek.org>
	<20070716183818.GC12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718094543.GD3333@us.netrek.org>
	<20070812151526.GA4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <20070817014547.GA4876@us.netrek.org>

On Sun, Aug 12, 2007 at 05:15:27PM +0200, Rado S wrote:
> - Why not publicly (wiki, www?) declare it and its members when it
> started?

I can't speak for the council on my own, sorry.  The council has not
directly discussed existence publicity in deliberation.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From ahn at orion.netrek.org  Thu Aug 16 21:39:07 2007
From: ahn at orion.netrek.org (Dave Ahn)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 22:39:07 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] Call for feedback from: James Cameron
In-Reply-To: <20070817014547.GA4876@us.netrek.org>
References: <20070530184118.GE4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070531010558.GA8430@us.netrek.org>
	<20070617132312.GE4720@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070617230739.GA4664@us.netrek.org>
	<20070619194339.GI21040@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070620000202.GA4060@us.netrek.org>
	<20070716183818.GC12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718094543.GD3333@us.netrek.org>
	<20070812151526.GA4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070817014547.GA4876@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <20070817023907.GA23397@orion.netrek.org>

Why is there so much fuss?  There is no secret council, and there is no
hidden agenda.  However, there has always been a small group of
individuals who have been responsible for maintaining the infrastructure
that serves as the foundation for all Netrek community resources.  This
has been public knowledge going back to the day these individuals
volunteered to provide and/or maintain the infrastructure.  These
individuals have communicated privately to address and resolve issues
regarding the infrastructure and have publicized any relevant
information to the community on a necessary basis.  All of these
individuals have been long time contributors and carry some measure of
respect and trust, and to my knowledge none of these individuals have
made private or public claims of authority over Netrek or the community
beyond what their assumed roles permit.  Due to the recent traffic about
unfair metaserver policies, I proposed back in April to formalize this
group into what is now the Netrek Infrastructure Team.  I felt that as
"gatekeepers" of the Netrek community, we should be more collaborative
in maintaining these infrastructure resources in an unbiased and fair
manner.  The other individuals agreed, and the group was formed.
Hopefully this clears up any misconceptions, and we can move on to more
important matters that may be of concern to the community.

Dave


From regrado at web.de  Fri Aug 17 14:21:26 2007
From: regrado at web.de (Rado S)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 21:21:26 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] Call for feedback from: James Cameron
In-Reply-To: <20070815042003.GA3526@us.netrek.org>
References: <20070530184118.GE4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070531010558.GA8430@us.netrek.org>
	<20070617132312.GE4720@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070617230739.GA4664@us.netrek.org>
	<20070619194339.GI21040@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070620000202.GA4060@us.netrek.org>
	<20070716183818.GC12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718094543.GD3333@us.netrek.org>
	<20070812151526.GA4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070815042003.GA3526@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <20070817192126.GC28706@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- James Cameron wrote on Wed 15.Aug'07 at 14:20:03 +1000 -=

> > - Once people don't react to requests addressed to the general
> > public in the flow of the list traffic, how to engage specific
> > people's interest to respond publicly?
> 
> {...} If you find they are not responding, check to see if you are
> doing the best you can - see How To Ask Questions The Smart Way.
> 
> http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

Can you give an example for a question I posed badly and how you
would have put it better?

> If you continue to get no response, then your request is just not
> interesting enough.

1st problem can be that the intended recipient might not be aware
it's intended for him.
That's why I've put names explicitely the 2nd time to exclude this
possibility.
Then they reacted as they did -> done (unless asked for or left open
questions). Dave and Bob made it pretty simple and well.
 Given their presumed load and limited awareness to regular traffic,
it seemed necessary to make it exceptional.

> Work to make it more interesting.

If the mere matter is not interesting enough in itself, I let it be
and rather find those who already share the interest and commitment.
All I need(ed) was _positive_ confirmation that the lack of interest
is the case and nothing else. I wanted to avoid to start things as
described, only later to learn that somebody feels "attacked" by it
and then "fights back" when this wasn't the intention.
You did now anyway, but better now than later, when there is more to
lose and spoil.

There is work, and there is work.
"Work" makes stuff intended to be fun less fun.
It's a matter of subjective perception, so have to find out
individually with each candidate where the limits are.

> Do not attempt direct contact with specific people unless they have
> invited you to do so.  There are several reasons for this, {...}

Thanks for the advice, but I was aware of that already.
Not only that, it also was/is my own and primary interest to resolve
this publicly for all to know, so that it need not be re-chewed
again.
Maybe I wasn't the first to ask those questions, but nobody pointed
me to existing answers and confirmed that they still applied.

> {...} and you can find some of them at
> http://pptpclient.sourceforge.net/why.phtml which is what I give
> to people who write to me on that project instead of posting to
> the mailing list.

I can't remember having written to anyone in private.
If it was, then as mistake (unless asked for).

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From regrado at web.de  Sat Aug 18 09:28:16 2007
From: regrado at web.de (Rado S)
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 16:28:16 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] Response from Dave
In-Reply-To: <20070817023907.GA23397@orion.netrek.org>
References: <20070531010558.GA8430@us.netrek.org>
	<20070617132312.GE4720@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070617230739.GA4664@us.netrek.org>
	<20070619194339.GI21040@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070620000202.GA4060@us.netrek.org>
	<20070716183818.GC12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718094543.GD3333@us.netrek.org>
	<20070812151526.GA4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070817014547.GA4876@us.netrek.org>
	<20070817023907.GA23397@orion.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <20070818142816.GG4452@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- Dave Ahn wrote on Thu 16.Aug'07 at 22:39:07 -0400 -=

> Why is there so much fuss?

Because apparantly James likes to play games when I ask for serious
answers and he brought this "council" story up when it obviously
didn't apply to my original question.

I'm sorry about that it affects you more than necessary, especially
since you have declared your position before. I failed to ignore
anything said about you not originating from you. It shall never
happen again.

(still waiting for wiki and other things at your mercy ;)

> There is no secret council, and there is no hidden agenda.

James' answers were misleading there.

> However, there has always been a small group of individuals who
> have been responsible for maintaining the infrastructure that
> serves as the foundation for all Netrek community resources.

Yes, that was known, but not their current members and what their
individual roles are and the authorities attached to it.
 Neither whether they had any further "game defintion" and "fairness
control" interests -- only that they maybe hadn't the time for it
yet so might have let others do it (for them or on their own) -- or
strictly oppose any such motions.

> All of these individuals have been long time contributors and
> carry some measure of respect and trust, {...}

That's why was I asking you all (incl. James) _before_ I'd go about
potentially doing something of this size+impact against your interest.

> {...} and to my knowledge none of these individuals have made
> private or public claims of authority over Netrek or the community
> beyond what their assumed roles permit.

James apparently did when he declared the authority situation about
client fairness/ control had changed since I started asking about it
by bringing up "the council" with the listed members.

> I felt that as "gatekeepers" of the Netrek community, we should be
> more collaborative in maintaining these infrastructure resources
> in an unbiased and fair manner.

I'm glad to hear that. This I wanted to propagate even to those not
aware of it yet, as there obviously are some quite vocal against
this fairness across game styles, but nobody keeping them in check.
_Now_ _I_ can do that without being wrong in your sense, when nobody
else from the NIT does.

The only thing unresolved yet is the question what fairness within a
game style means: what's OK, what's borg, how to implement control,
or has this any relevance anymore at all?

Now with your 2 responses on this matter I know that _you_ (which I
mistakingly believed [want] to be final authority for a "the netrek
game") don't want to be bothered with that, in any way.
 So I'll try to find answers elsewhere.

> Hopefully this clears up any misconceptions, and we can move on to
> more important matters that may be of concern to the community.

Yes, it does. I'm sorry for my share in the disturbances.
Moving and looking forward into a better future.
How can we help you? (other than being patient) ;)

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From billbalcerski at gmail.com  Sat Aug 18 09:37:15 2007
From: billbalcerski at gmail.com (Bill Balcerski)
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 10:37:15 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] Response from Dave
In-Reply-To: <20070818142816.GG4452@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <20070531010558.GA8430@us.netrek.org>
	<20070617230739.GA4664@us.netrek.org>
	<20070619194339.GI21040@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070620000202.GA4060@us.netrek.org>
	<20070716183818.GC12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718094543.GD3333@us.netrek.org>
	<20070812151526.GA4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070817014547.GA4876@us.netrek.org>
	<20070817023907.GA23397@orion.netrek.org>
	<20070818142816.GG4452@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <45ab86180708180737x37128b99k733fb18ce3a392d9@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/18/07, Rado S <regrado at web.de> wrote:

> The only thing unresolved yet is the question what fairness within a
> game style means: what's OK, what's borg, how to implement control,
> or has this any relevance anymore at all?
>
At the moment, it works like this.  Client authors add features.
Features are made known to the 2 server operators (Karthik and James)
via either pre-release access to changes, or in the case of MacTrek,
release notes :).  Said server operators request features be removed
(rare) or feature packeted (often).  Client authors mostly cooperate.
In the end it will always be the server operators who say what is and
isn't borg.  Obviously the feelings of the community will have some
sway in their decision as to what they allow, but ultimately it's up
to them.
Bill


From niclas at acc.umu.se  Sun Aug 19 15:07:48 2007
From: niclas at acc.umu.se (Niclas Fredriksson)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 22:07:48 +0200 (MEST)
Subject: [netrek-dev] Response from Dave
In-Reply-To: <20070818142816.GG4452@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <20070531010558.GA8430@us.netrek.org>
	<20070617132312.GE4720@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070617230739.GA4664@us.netrek.org>
	<20070619194339.GI21040@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070620000202.GA4060@us.netrek.org>
	<20070716183818.GC12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718094543.GD3333@us.netrek.org>
	<20070812151526.GA4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070817014547.GA4876@us.netrek.org>
	<20070817023907.GA23397@orion.netrek.org>
	<20070818142816.GG4452@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0708192207220.19855@shaka.acc.umu.se>

On Sat, 18 Aug 2007, Rado S wrote:

> That's why was I asking you all (incl. James) _before_ I'd go about 
> potentially doing something of this size+impact against your interest.

What are you going to do?

-- Niclas


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Sun Aug 19 18:02:14 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 09:02:14 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] Call for feedback from: James Cameron
In-Reply-To: <20070812151526.GA4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <20070530184118.GE4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070531010558.GA8430@us.netrek.org>
	<20070617132312.GE4720@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070617230739.GA4664@us.netrek.org>
	<20070619194339.GI21040@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070620000202.GA4060@us.netrek.org>
	<20070716183818.GC12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718094543.GD3333@us.netrek.org>
	<20070812151526.GA4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <20070819230214.GA4041@us.netrek.org>

On Sun, Aug 12, 2007 at 05:15:27PM +0200, Rado S wrote:
> - You recommended "You should review the list of resources on the Wiki."
> 	When reading it, I saw "people in charge", but missed "the
> 	council".
> 	Will you (council) add it for completeness?

http://wiki.us.netrek.org/netrek-dev/ServicesList is the list of
resources that I was writing about at the time.  Yes, it does currently
contain the phrase "people in charge", and does not contain "the
council".

The Netrek Infrastructure Team has not decided to do anything in
particular about this page on the development Wiki.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From regrado at web.de  Mon Aug 20 12:56:49 2007
From: regrado at web.de (Rado S)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 19:56:49 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] What happens?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0708192207220.19855@shaka.acc.umu.se>
References: <20070617230739.GA4664@us.netrek.org>
	<20070619194339.GI21040@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070620000202.GA4060@us.netrek.org>
	<20070716183818.GC12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718094543.GD3333@us.netrek.org>
	<20070812151526.GA4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070817014547.GA4876@us.netrek.org>
	<20070817023907.GA23397@orion.netrek.org>
	<20070818142816.GG4452@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0708192207220.19855@shaka.acc.umu.se>
Message-ID: <20070820175649.GA26887@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- Niclas Fredriksson wrote on Sun 19.Aug'07 at 22:07:48 +0200 -=

> > That's why was I asking you all (incl. James) _before_ I'd go
> > about potentially doing something of this size+impact against
> > your interest.
> 
> What are you going to do?

Re-read this overall thread's starter.

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From jjadeinc at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 20 15:11:06 2007
From: jjadeinc at hotmail.com (Joe Evango)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 15:11:06 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] What happens?
In-Reply-To: <20070820175649.GA26887@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <BAY113-F2897A69B6C8E6BF9889DF1CBDB0@phx.gbl>

>From: Rado S <regrado at web.de>
>
>Re-read this overall thread's starter.
>


From regrado at web.de  Mon Aug 20 15:54:57 2007
From: regrado at web.de (Rado S)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 22:54:57 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] What happens?
In-Reply-To: <BAY113-F2897A69B6C8E6BF9889DF1CBDB0@phx.gbl>
References: <20070820175649.GA26887@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<BAY113-F2897A69B6C8E6BF9889DF1CBDB0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20070820205457.GB26887@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- Joe Evango wrote on Mon 20.Aug'07 at 15:11:06 -0500 -=

> identifying certain areas of responsibility,

Right.

> replacing people who have volunteered their time and made numerous
> contributions to Netrek for many years and restructuring the
> Netrek community.

When they don't want to volunteer for this ...

> The ideas you presented several months ago for restructuring would
> require a tremendous amount of community support which I do not
> sense there is.

... I still wonder why you all are so upset, when they themselves
aren't. It's not like I wanted to take anything away from them but
built on top of their groundwork things, which they weren't
interested in to do themselves.

> I believe a majority of the people you asked for responses from
> have responded.

3 of 5: 1 apparently totally out of netrek business, 1 uncaring.
2 of 3 (total 5) useful responses, so 2 win:2 loss:1 draw.
I'd rather call it balanced, not majority.

> They may not have given the answers you wanted but they did
> respond.

All 3 have, although the 3rd one's weren't as useful.

> Were there additional pieces that I missed?

Yes, to explain what keywords or means you use on 3rd party sites as
baits for newbs when they search for games to stick with netrek.

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From jjadeinc at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 20 16:57:10 2007
From: jjadeinc at hotmail.com (Joe Evango)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 16:57:10 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] What happens?
In-Reply-To: <20070820205457.GB26887@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <BAY113-F34C40728937D3CC28B851ACBDB0@phx.gbl>

>From: Rado S <regrado at web.de>
>
>When they don't want to volunteer for this ...
>

But do you have the authority to replace people or restructure the community 
if they don't respond to you?  One always has the right to share ideas but 
without proper support they usually will not succeed in implementing them.

>
>... I still wonder why you all are so upset, when they themselves
>aren't. It's not like I wanted to take anything away from them but
>built on top of their groundwork things, which they weren't
>interested in to do themselves.
>

I think people are more confused then upset.

>
>Yes, to explain what keywords or means you use on 3rd party sites as
>baits for newbs when they search for games to stick with netrek.
>

For numerous reasons this information is not for public release.  I see no 
reason to share this information with anyone other then those currently 
working on the promotion project for netrek.org.  I have offered to merge 
playnetrek.org with netrek.org which will also pass along the rankings I 
have earned to draw in new players over the years.  I have also offered my 
services with promoting Netrek through netrek.org once the transition is 
complete.  Dave, Andrew and myself have all agreed to work together to see 
this transition through.  There is no timeline for completion.

-Joe

_________________________________________________________________
Learn.Laugh.Share. Reallivemoms is right place! 
http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us



From jrd at gerdesas.com  Mon Aug 20 17:32:52 2007
From: jrd at gerdesas.com (John R. Dennison)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 17:32:52 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] What happens?
In-Reply-To: <BAY113-F34C40728937D3CC28B851ACBDB0@phx.gbl>
References: <20070820205457.GB26887@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<BAY113-F34C40728937D3CC28B851ACBDB0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20070820223252.GI3755@mail.beanhq.com>

On Mon, Aug 20, 2007 at 04:57:10PM -0500, Joe Evango wrote:
> 
> But do you have the authority to replace people or restructure the community 
> if they don't respond to you?  One always has the right to share ideas but 
> without proper support they usually will not succeed in implementing them.

	Unless Sven is willing to change DNS entries for clientkeys,
	metaserver and other items I don't see how Rado could, quite
	frankly.

> I think people are more confused then upset.

	Well, the initial message that started all this discussion
	rubbed some people the wrong way.  Most people do not take
	well to threats.

> For numerous reasons this information is not for public release.  I see no 
> reason to share this information with anyone other then those currently 
> working on the promotion project for netrek.org.  I have offered to merge 

	I concur with this.  Time and real money has gone into this
	work.




							John

-- 
"I'm sorry but our engineers do not have phones."
As stated by a Network Solutions Customer Service representative when asked to
be put through to an engineer.

"My other computer is your windows box."
                                     Ralf Hildebrandt
<sxem> trying to play sturgeon while it's under attack is apparently not fun.
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From quozl at us.netrek.org  Mon Aug 20 19:52:03 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 10:52:03 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] Call for feedback from: James Cameron
In-Reply-To: <20070812151526.GA4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <20070530184118.GE4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070531010558.GA8430@us.netrek.org>
	<20070617132312.GE4720@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070617230739.GA4664@us.netrek.org>
	<20070619194339.GI21040@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070620000202.GA4060@us.netrek.org>
	<20070716183818.GC12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718094543.GD3333@us.netrek.org>
	<20070812151526.GA4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <20070821005203.GD6029@us.netrek.org>

On Sun, Aug 12, 2007 at 05:15:27PM +0200, Rado S wrote:
> - I've listed Carlos as meta-service owner only, you said there is
> 	also FAQ + keyserver on Carlos' meta-server but also other
> 	meta-servers.

Agreed.

> 	- how to reach the FAQ on the meta-server? Who maintains it?
> 		(the FAQ isn't listed in ServicesList)

Per metarc in the metaserver sources [1], the port number is 3524, and
is reached using telnet.  Only one of the three metaservers have this
port enabled, but the file is missing so an error is generated.  The
file in the sources is out of date [2].  Patches welcome.

[1]  http://james.tooraweenah.com/darcs/netrek-metaserver/metarc

[2]  http://james.tooraweenah.com/darcs/netrek-metaserver/server_faq

> 	- what other services are on other meta-servers besides
> 		game server list?

See [1] above for the other services on the metaservers.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Tue Aug 21 00:14:53 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 15:14:53 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-client-pygame 0.2 released
Message-ID: <20070821051453.GA13834@us.netrek.org>

A Netrek client, using pygame, usable on any operating system supported
by python and pygame, including Microsoft Windows, MAC OS X, and Linux.

http://quozl.linux.org.au/netrek-client-pygame/

There are many missing features, including messaging.  Patches welcome.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/
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From mark at mark.mielke.cc  Tue Aug 21 01:35:07 2007
From: mark at mark.mielke.cc (Mark Mielke)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 02:35:07 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-client-pygame 0.2 released
In-Reply-To: <20070821051453.GA13834@us.netrek.org>
References: <20070821051453.GA13834@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <46CA879B.5010004@mark.mielke.cc>

Looks cool - but I wasn't able to run it, and I didn't have time to open 
it up and see. Missing images? :-)

$ python netrek.py
Netrek Client Pygame
Copyright (C) 2007 James Cameron <quozl at us.netrek.org>

This program comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY; for details see source.
This is free software, and you are welcome to redistribute it under certain
conditions; see source for details.

ALSA lib confmisc.c:769:(parse_card) cannot find card ''
ALSA lib conf.c:3510:(_snd_config_evaluate) function 
snd_func_card_driver returned error: No such device
ALSA lib confmisc.c:392:(snd_func_concat) error evaluating strings
ALSA lib conf.c:3510:(_snd_config_evaluate) function snd_func_concat 
returned error: No such device
ALSA lib confmisc.c:1251:(snd_func_refer) error evaluating name
ALSA lib conf.c:3510:(_snd_config_evaluate) function snd_func_refer 
returned error: No such device
ALSA lib conf.c:3982:(snd_config_expand) Evaluate error: No such device
ALSA lib pcm.c:2144:(snd_pcm_open_noupdate) Unknown PCM default
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "netrek.py", line 2708, in <module>
    ph_splash = PhaseSplash(screen)
  File "netrek.py", line 2158, in __init__
    self.background("hubble-helix.jpg")
  File "netrek.py", line 2074, in background
    background = ic.get(name)
  File "netrek.py", line 675, in get
    self.cache[name] = self.read(name)
  File "netrek.py", line 670, in read
    image = pygame.image.load('images/' + name)
pygame.error: Couldn't open images/hubble-helix.jpg



James Cameron wrote:
> A Netrek client, using pygame, usable on any operating system supported
> by python and pygame, including Microsoft Windows, MAC OS X, and Linux.
>
> http://quozl.linux.org.au/netrek-client-pygame/
>
> There are many missing features, including messaging.  Patches welcome.
>
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> netrek-dev mailing list
> netrek-dev at us.netrek.org
> http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev
>   


-- 
Mark Mielke <mark at mielke.cc>

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From darius at dons.net.au  Tue Aug 21 01:39:48 2007
From: darius at dons.net.au (Daniel O'Connor)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 16:09:48 +0930
Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-client-pygame 0.2 released
In-Reply-To: <20070821051453.GA13834@us.netrek.org>
References: <20070821051453.GA13834@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <200708211609.49342.darius@dons.net.au>

On Tue, 21 Aug 2007, James Cameron wrote:
> A Netrek client, using pygame, usable on any operating system
> supported by python and pygame, including Microsoft Windows, MAC OS
> X, and Linux.
>
> http://quozl.linux.org.au/netrek-client-pygame/
>
> There are many missing features, including messaging.  Patches
> welcome.

Looks lovely, nice work!

Huzzah for a truly cross platform client :)

-- 
Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer
for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au
"The nice thing about standards is that there
are so many of them to choose from."
  -- Andrew Tanenbaum
GPG Fingerprint - 5596 B766 97C0 0E94 4347 295E E593 DC20 7B3F CE8C
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From darius at dons.net.au  Tue Aug 21 01:56:20 2007
From: darius at dons.net.au (Daniel O'Connor)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 16:26:20 +0930
Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-client-pygame 0.2 released
In-Reply-To: <46CA879B.5010004@mark.mielke.cc>
References: <20070821051453.GA13834@us.netrek.org>
	<46CA879B.5010004@mark.mielke.cc>
Message-ID: <200708211626.22042.darius@dons.net.au>

On Tue, 21 Aug 2007, Mark Mielke wrote:
> Looks cool - but I wasn't able to run it, and I didn't have time to
> open it up and see. Missing images? :-)

Edit netrek.py and put a comment mark (#) in front of lines 2158, 2168, 
and 2291.

-- 
Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer
for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au
"The nice thing about standards is that there
are so many of them to choose from."
  -- Andrew Tanenbaum
GPG Fingerprint - 5596 B766 97C0 0E94 4347 295E E593 DC20 7B3F CE8C
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From quozl at us.netrek.org  Tue Aug 21 02:02:31 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 17:02:31 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-client-pygame 0.3 released
Message-ID: <20070821070231.GA16460@us.netrek.org>

A Netrek client, using pygame, usable on any operating system supported
by python and pygame, including Microsoft Windows, MAC OS X, and Linux.

http://quozl.linux.org.au/netrek-client-pygame/

This release fixes a missing image file, which was present in the source
repository and the Debian style package build, but not in the tar.gz
build.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/
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From regrado at web.de  Tue Aug 21 12:40:31 2007
From: regrado at web.de (Rado S)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 19:40:31 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] What happens?
In-Reply-To: <BAY113-F34C40728937D3CC28B851ACBDB0@phx.gbl>
References: <20070820205457.GB26887@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<BAY113-F34C40728937D3CC28B851ACBDB0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20070821174031.GA2239@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- Joe Evango wrote on Mon 20.Aug'07 at 16:57:10 -0500 -=

> But do you have the authority to replace people or restructure the
> community if they don't respond to you?

Why shouldn't I have?

Being part of the public (and everyone else who once in a while barks
"borg" adds to this public demand), it's the authority of the public
when the powers in charge don't (want to) respond to public requests.
Of course it would require those barking to do something about their
complaints more than just barking. If it turned out to be hot air,
all the better for me: I can safely ignore them, too.
(although still I'd prefer a system to control fairness, so not to
have clients discriminated without backed up reason, and generally
fair games, once you know what fairness for a given game means and
what not).

What's bad about replacing those "in charge" when they can't or
don't want to implement the supposedly demanded fairness?

> One always has the right to share ideas but without proper support
> they usually will not succeed in implementing them.

You can't know before you ask and then try.
And asking for support (active or passive) was all I did.

> I think people are more confused then upset.

But ... about what?
I laid down the concept, asked for volunteers among the owners, then
permission to go without them but with their infrastructure, or
straight opposition. When some busy people didn't react for a very
long time, I didn't want to wait forever for an answer to have their
_positive_ dis-/approval. Should every action be delayed forever
when required responses "hang" forever? There is always some
"timeout" to get moving (and kill a process when it blocks access).
 What's confusing about that?

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From regrado at web.de  Tue Aug 21 13:18:06 2007
From: regrado at web.de (Rado S)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 20:18:06 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] Campaigning secrets
Message-ID: <20070821181806.GB2239@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

Moin, re campaigning...

> >Yes, to explain what keywords or means you use on 3rd party sites
> >as baits for newbs when they search for games to stick with
> >netrek.
> 
> For numerous reasons this information is not for public release.

Ok, seems I'm too little into this business to have an idea how
public discussion about a public campaign could hurt you.
And, how this campaigning business is supposed to work at all.

What's the typical _general_ scenario for the most promising turnout
case you're trying to cover (if you don't want to give away secret
details about the specific netrek campaign [security by obscurity?])?

Who (newb and campaigner) does what (type or read) to make a newb
look at or even stay with netrek?
 (only campaigning, not in-game)

> I see no reason to share this information with anyone other then
> those currently working on the promotion project for netrek.org.

To get feedback, more opinions, experience, ideas you haven't
thought of. Or are you (your group) a "know it all", too?

Remember how we (re-)learned about your private investments with
your solo campaigning efforts of which apparently nobody else knew?

If you hadn't brought this into a discussion we had, you wouldn't
have been advised to coordinate with others and perhaps wouldn't
have joined with Andrew so fast as you have now, still working on
your own.

> Dave, Andrew and myself have all agreed to work together to see
> this transition through.

Is there anyone against this that you feel you must protect it?

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From jjadeinc at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 21 13:39:37 2007
From: jjadeinc at hotmail.com (Joe Evango)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 13:39:37 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] What happens?
In-Reply-To: <20070821174031.GA2239@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <BAY113-F20FB41C80A422ABC100D19CBD40@phx.gbl>

>From: Rado S <regrado at web.de>
>
>Why shouldn't I have?
>Being part of the public (and everyone else who once in a while barks
>"borg" adds to this public demand), it's the authority of the public
>when the powers in charge don't (want to) respond to public requests.
>

Were you requesting or demanding?  What are you not receiving responses on?  
Seems like most everyone you asked for replies from have given them, some 
several times.

>
>What's bad about replacing those "in charge" when they can't or
>don't want to implement the supposedly demanded fairness?
>

Notice you used the word "demanded" instead of "requested".  Fairness in 
regards to what?  Paradise?  This has already been answered.

>
>You can't know before you ask and then try.
>And asking for support (active or passive) was all I did.
>

I didn't get the feeling you were asking.  Seemed more like an ultimatum.

>
>But ... about what?
>I laid down the concept, asked for volunteers among the owners, then
>permission to go without them but with their infrastructure, or
>straight opposition. Should every action be delayed forever
>when required responses "hang" forever? There is always some
>"timeout" to get moving (and kill a process when it blocks access).
>  What's confusing about that?
>

For one I am confused about what exactly your role is in the community.  
Outside of the dev list and #netrek I have never seen you on a server nor 
has anyone else I have spoken with.  How can someone restructure a gaming 
community if they are disconnected from the game and never play?  What 
action and what process?

-Joe

_________________________________________________________________
Now you can see trouble?before he arrives 
http://newlivehotmail.com/?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_viral_protection_0507



From regrado at web.de  Tue Aug 21 14:39:54 2007
From: regrado at web.de (Rado S)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 21:39:54 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] What happens?
In-Reply-To: <BAY113-F20FB41C80A422ABC100D19CBD40@phx.gbl>
References: <20070821174031.GA2239@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<BAY113-F20FB41C80A422ABC100D19CBD40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20070821193954.GD2239@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

*sigh*

=- Joe Evango wrote on Tue 21.Aug'07 at 13:39:37 -0500 -=

>> when the powers in charge don't (want to) respond to public
>> requests.
>
> Were you requesting or demanding?

There is a demand for fairness.
There was my request to satisfy it, or that I could/ would try.
So, both.

> What are you not receiving responses on? Seems like most everyone
> you asked for replies from have given them, some several times.

As I said, 2 of them were only once each, and those were the useful
ones, but only after the personlized version.
The one with "several" times was contradicting himself.

For what is still open: see post of Bill.
 I asked him in #netrek about it, but before repeating here again:
 this has already been covered before in the thread starters
(general and personalized), see archive.

> Fairness in regards to what? Paradise? This has already been
> answered.

Yes, and I acknowledged that already, what's your point?
There is inter-style and intra-style fairness.
One is solved, the other not.

>> And asking for support (active or passiv