From stephen.thorne at gmail.com Thu Mar 1 00:12:45 2007 From: stephen.thorne at gmail.com (Stephen Thorne) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 16:12:45 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] psychotic cow? In-Reply-To: <0qfy8po9c4.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <0qfy8po9c4.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: <3e8ca5c80702282212s1ca239ddp93e2185249260957@mail.gmail.com> have you tried the latest cow from james's darcs repo? -- Stephen Thorne "Give me enough bandwidth and a place to sit and I will move the world." --Jonathan Lange From netrek at gmail.com Thu Mar 1 00:14:03 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 01:14:03 -0500 Subject: [netrek-dev] psychotic cow? In-Reply-To: <0qfy8po9c4.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <0qfy8po9c4.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: I had this same problem with COW in Linux (Debian also). Would be nice if someone can finally solve this. For now I use the COW package Bob Tanner made as that works. I'd like to know WHY it works though :-) Zach On 2/28/07, Andrew K. Bressen wrote: > > I tried to fire up linux COW tonight; some problems on > both pickled and the clue game. > > Continuum was fine. Connecting to continuum and logging in, output is: > Attempting to connect to continuum.us.netrek.org on port 2592... > Calling continuum.us.netrek.org on port 2592. > Got connection. > *** socket 12588, player 0 *** > Feature FPS from server unknown to client! > Receiving Short Packet Version 11 > RSA verification requested. > > But, attempting to obs or play on pickled, or obs the clue game, > I got something like the following: > Attempting to observe on port 4578... > Attempting to connect to away.clue.netrek.org on port 4578... > Calling away.clue.netrek.org on port 4578. > Got connection. > *** socket 12688, player 27 *** > Receiving Short Packet Version 11 > RSA verification requested. > Tried to write 6, 0xbfe3bc20, 12 > write: Destination address required > gwrite failed. > Whoops! We've been ghostbusted! > Pray for a miracle! > Waiting for connection (port 12688). > > The socket message appears immediately. > Then I perform a login and choose a ship. > Then other messages appear, as the screen does a full draw, > and then immediately freezes, busted. > > The hex number changes from run to run. > > This is the COW.3.01pl0.linux_glibc23 build, > my glibc is 2.3.6.ds1-11 from debian. > > > _______________________________________________ > netrek-dev mailing list > netrek-dev at us.netrek.org > http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev > From quozl at us.netrek.org Thu Mar 1 00:49:05 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 17:49:05 +1100 Subject: [netrek-dev] psychotic cow? In-Reply-To: <3e8ca5c80702282212s1ca239ddp93e2185249260957@mail.gmail.com> <0qfy8po9c4.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <0qfy8po9c4.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <0qfy8po9c4.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <3e8ca5c80702282212s1ca239ddp93e2185249260957@mail.gmail.com> <0qfy8po9c4.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: <20070301064905.GA18297@us.netrek.org> On Wed, Feb 28, 2007 at 11:51:07PM -0500, Andrew K. Bressen wrote: > RSA verification requested. > Tried to write 6, 0xbfe3bc20, 12 > write: Destination address required > gwrite failed. Known problem, since fixed. Upgrade. Unfortunately, we don't have the fix packaged into a binary release yet. It was caused by code in COW that responded to a ping packet from the server during the negotiation of UDP. The code mistakenly used the UDP socket before it had been connected to the server. It has been there for a long time, and I'm not sure what has recently changed to make it more common. You should find that adding "tryudp: off" to your .xtrekrc will work around it. If not, it's a different problem. The fix is in my repository. http://james.tooraweenah.com/darcs/netrek-client-cow/ Wed Feb 21 22:23:40 EST 2007 quozl at us.netrek.org * fix udp establishment * ping.c: sometimes establishing UDP fails, turns out because a ping packet arrives for us to reply to, but we haven't got the UDP connection established, and so gwrite fails. Fix is to note this and just use TCP. The diff is visible here: http://james.tooraweenah.com/cgi-bin/darcs.cgi/netrek-client-cow/?c=diff&p=20070221112340-e4f26-dd56b28ad3748f9cc86bdbcf22f69a3463f173c4.gz It is not yet in the netrek.org repository. The netrek.org repository is about 35 patches behind mine, dating back to November 2006. http://www.netrek.org/repos/netrek-client-cow/ I'd like more people trying to use the client straight out of my repository, so that we can detect regressions sooner. I'm also interested to hear from anyone who'd like to run a stable repo from mine, from which they can build binaries. I don't want to do everything. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From netrek at gmail.com Thu Mar 1 02:24:48 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 03:24:48 -0500 Subject: [netrek-dev] psychotic cow? In-Reply-To: <20070301064905.GA18297@us.netrek.org> References: <3e8ca5c80702282212s1ca239ddp93e2185249260957@mail.gmail.com> <0qfy8po9c4.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070301064905.GA18297@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: I have connected to bill's server many times. never had any issue with busting and I'm not using COW (Netrek XP Mod 4.4.0.3 for Win32). I sent Bill my netrekrc and he tested it with that same client/version and had no problems and said it was due likely to my latency with dialup. But if this was just a dialup issue I would have busted many times on the netrek servers since I've been using this client for well over a year which isn't the case. I was able to login to bill's server this past weekend without issue. So maybe it was code in one of the fps patches that had an unintended consequence or a non-fps patch submitted between Sunday and a few hours ago which is causing this behaviour. Zach From narcis at luky.nl Thu Mar 1 08:21:51 2007 From: narcis at luky.nl (Narcis) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 15:21:51 +0100 Subject: [netrek-dev] MacTrek Active In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <412DF64D-BB68-4BC7-876D-B6A2B3DC172C@luky.nl> > Has the issue with the "Active" message been fixed in the latest > release? As of now there is a new release at sourceforge (1.1.1) that fixes the Active issue it also addresses the problem of the incorrect hogcall. It does not contain new functions but is a continuation of the 1.1.0 branch, not of the trunk. regards Chris From quozl at us.netrek.org Thu Mar 1 14:46:18 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 07:46:18 +1100 Subject: [netrek-dev] psychotic cow? In-Reply-To: References: <3e8ca5c80702282212s1ca239ddp93e2185249260957@mail.gmail.com> <0qfy8po9c4.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070301064905.GA18297@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: <20070301204618.GA5648@us.netrek.org> No, Zach, this problem has been reproduced by me and others several times over the past few years, but it hasn't been important enough to be fixed until now. For a short time during development last week or the week before, the SP_PING packets were sent five times faster, and so the chances of the problem happening were much greater, and so finding the problem much easier. It was what we call a race condition problem. Without this opportunity created by the temporary bugs introduced into the server, it would have been very hard to find. Strict timing would be necessary, over a large range of timing possibilities. We would have had to craft a client modification that would delay UDP initialisation by different amounts of time, from zero to two seconds, in hundredth second increments. The change that returned SP_PING to normal on the server, was the change to efticks() macro. Please review all the changes. They aren't all related to 50 fps. Don't focus on just that feature, to the exlusion of others. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From quozl at us.netrek.org Fri Mar 2 02:13:42 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 19:13:42 +1100 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-server-vanilla-2.12.1 released [SECURITY] Message-ID: <20070302081342.GA20340@us.netrek.org> netrek-server-vanilla 2.12.1 was released. http://quozl.linux.org.au/netrek/ 9ae1eafabbe7228625509c5690374559 netrek-server-vanilla-2.12.1.tar.gz Packages for i386 Debian Etch also present. Summary of changes: - fixes format string security vulnerability when EVENTLOG=1 Patch attached. Our thanks to Luigi Auriemma for reporting the vulnerability. A reproducer was supplied. Severity is low, since EVENTLOG is shipped as 0 in docs/sample_sysdef.in. If you have a question, please review the patch first, before you write. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: netrek-server-vanilla-2.12.0-format-string.patch Type: text/x-diff Size: 6016 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.us.netrek.org/pipermail/netrek-dev/attachments/20070302/a5ed68c9/attachment.patch -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://mailman.us.netrek.org/pipermail/netrek-dev/attachments/20070302/a5ed68c9/attachment.pgp From jjadeinc at hotmail.com Mon Mar 5 14:31:26 2007 From: jjadeinc at hotmail.com (Joe Evango) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 14:31:26 -0600 Subject: [netrek-dev] Metaserver not updating? Message-ID: Still some listings leftover from a clue game. Did the server crash during the last clue game? The metaserver is showing 4 people on both the home and away teams. -Joe _________________________________________________________________ Play Flexicon: the crossword game that feeds your brain. PLAY now for FREE.? http://zone.msn.com/en/flexicon/default.htm?icid=flexicon_hmtagline From jrd at gerdesas.com Mon Mar 5 14:39:18 2007 From: jrd at gerdesas.com (John R. Dennison) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 14:39:18 -0600 Subject: [netrek-dev] Metaserver not updating? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070305203918.GW16322@mail.beanhq.com> On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 02:31:26PM -0600, Joe Evango wrote: > Still some listings leftover from a clue game. Did the server crash during > the last clue game? The metaserver is showing 4 people on both the home > and away teams. Both metaserver.us.netrek.org and metserver2.us.netrek.org look fine to me. I see no references to the clue server. John -- "I'm sorry but our engineers do not have phones." As stated by a Network Solutions Customer Service representative when asked to be put through to an engineer. "My other computer is your windows box." Ralf Hildebrandt -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.us.netrek.org/pipermail/netrek-dev/attachments/20070305/794ffaa4/attachment.pgp From jjadeinc at hotmail.com Mon Mar 5 15:08:10 2007 From: jjadeinc at hotmail.com (Joe Evango) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 15:08:10 -0600 Subject: [netrek-dev] Metaserver not updating? In-Reply-To: <20070305203918.GW16322@mail.beanhq.com> Message-ID: It's strange. Was happening last night too. They would pop-up in the listing, then they would clear later. Thought it was fixed last night but then seen them again this morning. Just checked and they aren't in the listing now but if you go to http://metaserver.netrek.org:3522/ it shows them. -Joe >From: "John R. Dennison" >To: Joe Evango >CC: netrek-dev at us.netrek.org >Subject: Re: [netrek-dev] Metaserver not updating? >Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 14:39:18 -0600 >On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 02:31:26PM -0600, Joe Evango wrote: > > Still some listings leftover from a clue game. Did the server crash >during > > the last clue game? The metaserver is showing 4 people on both the home > > and away teams. > > Both metaserver.us.netrek.org and metserver2.us.netrek.org > look fine to me. I see no references to the clue server. > > > > John > > >-- >"I'm sorry but our engineers do not have phones." >As stated by a Network Solutions Customer Service representative when asked >to >be put through to an engineer. > >"My other computer is your windows box." > Ralf Hildebrandt ><< attach3 >> _________________________________________________________________ Don?t miss your chance to WIN 10 hours of private jet travel from Microsoft? Office Live http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0540002499mrt/direct/01/ From quozl at us.netrek.org Mon Mar 5 15:54:54 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 08:54:54 +1100 Subject: [netrek-dev] Metaserver not updating? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070305215454.GB6324@us.netrek.org> On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 02:31:26PM -0600, Joe Evango wrote: > Still some listings leftover from a clue game. Did the server crash during > the last clue game? The metaserver is showing 4 people on both the home > and away teams. Which metaserver? I've just checked, can't see what you report. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From karthik at karthik.com Mon Mar 5 15:59:28 2007 From: karthik at karthik.com (Karthik Arumugham) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 16:59:28 -0500 Subject: [netrek-dev] Metaserver not updating? In-Reply-To: <20070305215454.GB6324@us.netrek.org> References: <20070305215454.GB6324@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: Do you perhaps have a metacache problem? Try clearing your metaserver cache file, if it exists. There was a clue game yesterday afternoon, so perhaps you were seeing legitimate entries then that have continued to be cached. From quozl at us.netrek.org Mon Mar 5 16:04:29 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 09:04:29 +1100 Subject: [netrek-dev] Metaserver not updating? In-Reply-To: References: <20070305203918.GW16322@mail.beanhq.com> Message-ID: <20070305220429.GD6324@us.netrek.org> On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 03:08:10PM -0600, Joe Evango wrote: > It's strange. Was happening last night too. They would pop-up in the > listing, then they would clear later. Thought it was fixed last night but > then seen them again this morning. Just checked and they aren't in the > listing now but if you go to http://metaserver.netrek.org:3522/ it shows > them. Yes, http://metaserver.netrek.org:3522/ will show them but the clients will not. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From williamb at its.caltech.edu Mon Mar 5 16:15:59 2007 From: williamb at its.caltech.edu (William Balcerski) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 14:15:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [netrek-dev] Metaserver not updating? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What you are seeing is a result of the UDPmetacache in xp 2006 v1.2 I believe, it keeps previously seen servers around in cache..I saw the same effect when using the playnetrek.org client, guess it had the clue servers in the UDPmetacache. It's supposed to only list them as "Active" though instead of giving a player count..hmm, oh well, it goes away eventually. Bill On Mon, 5 Mar 2007, Joe Evango wrote: > Still some listings leftover from a clue game. Did the server crash during > the last clue game? The metaserver is showing 4 people on both the home and > away teams. > > -Joe > > _________________________________________________________________ > Play Flexicon: the crossword game that feeds your brain. PLAY now for FREE.? > http://zone.msn.com/en/flexicon/default.htm?icid=flexicon_hmtagline > > > From quozl at us.netrek.org Mon Mar 5 16:30:28 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 09:30:28 +1100 Subject: [netrek-dev] Metaserver not updating? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070305223028.GE6324@us.netrek.org> The metaserver has to resist attacks, and so it has limited trust in the information provided by servers or clients. At the moment, it will list a temporary clue server for a fair while, because we lack a mechanism to determine when the server should be removed. We can't add a "remove me" mechanism, since we have no way of knowing if it came from a legitimate source. Here's a new method ... in the original initial solicitation, if we change the protocol to add a flag that says "expire this within hours", and change the metaserver to client protocol accordingly, ... just like a DNS time to live concept. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From karthik at karthik.com Mon Mar 5 16:35:32 2007 From: karthik at karthik.com (Karthik Arumugham) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 17:35:32 -0500 Subject: [netrek-dev] Metaserver not updating? In-Reply-To: <20070305223028.GE6324@us.netrek.org> References: <20070305223028.GE6324@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: <1169B67D-F28C-4C38-8E1A-A2FA3E109279@karthik.com> Quozl: I think the timeout works well. a clue server can't know how long it'll be up for how about reducing it to 5 minutes? then, modifying the inl bot to only advertise if both teams have captains that'll automatically remove the listing when a game ends accounting for OT as for trust... a delist packet isn't a horrible idea, if we made it a 3 way handshake, but that's kinda complex right now you can just list another server with the same name, anyways, if you want to dos it. or 20 other servers From netrek at gmail.com Tue Mar 6 00:17:15 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 01:17:15 -0500 Subject: [netrek-dev] Metaserver not updating? In-Reply-To: <20070305220429.GD6324@us.netrek.org> References: <20070305203918.GW16322@mail.beanhq.com> <20070305220429.GD6324@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: On 3/5/07, James Cameron wrote: > > Yes, http://metaserver.netrek.org:3522/ will show them but the clients > will not. When I go there I either get a blank white page or it gives the error, "The connection to the server was reset while the page was loading." Zach From stephen.thorne at gmail.com Tue Mar 6 00:34:11 2007 From: stephen.thorne at gmail.com (Stephen Thorne) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 16:34:11 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] Metaserver not updating? In-Reply-To: References: <20070305203918.GW16322@mail.beanhq.com> <20070305220429.GD6324@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: <3e8ca5c80703052234tc396158y74cbf530b9b2759b@mail.gmail.com> On 3/6/07, Zach wrote: > When I go there I either get a blank white page or it gives the error, > "The connection to the server was reset while the page was loading." Works for me. Try turning off your windows firewall or using a different browser. -- Stephen Thorne "Give me enough bandwidth and a place to sit and I will move the world." --Jonathan Lange From quozl at us.netrek.org Tue Mar 6 01:49:09 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 18:49:09 +1100 Subject: [netrek-dev] Metaserver not updating? In-Reply-To: <3e8ca5c80703052234tc396158y74cbf530b9b2759b@mail.gmail.com> References: <20070305203918.GW16322@mail.beanhq.com> <20070305220429.GD6324@us.netrek.org> <3e8ca5c80703052234tc396158y74cbf530b9b2759b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070306074909.GD25601@us.netrek.org> That URL is not intended to work. It does not meet HTTP 0.9, 1.0, 1.1 or 1.2. It only works for some people by accident, where the web browser is willing to assume that what is returned is plain text. http://metaserver.netrek.org:1080/ is intended to be the URL for HTTP access to the metaserver. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From joe at playnetrek.org Tue Mar 6 19:10:17 2007 From: joe at playnetrek.org (Joe Evango) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 17:10:17 -0800 Subject: [netrek-dev] Email from a new player Message-ID: Received an email from someone who seems fairly new. He has some ideas for a new server which sounds similar to Paradise but on a much larger scale. I know we don't have anywhere near the number of players needed to support something like this but I told him I would forward his email onto the server developers for review, so here you go: Hi, I used to play Netrek under the name of jamestc on my mum's computer At the moment I am using a different computer which can't run Netrek but I will play again when I get my new CPU. Anyway, I just came up with an idea for a new server (you may already have something like this, but I don't know that) All the current servers are great, one reasonable sized galaxy where havoc reigns every night. But I think that there should be a server for the people who like exploration and open space. Similar to the regular ones, but on a MUCH larger scale, and with extras. Such as clouds of Nebula gas, Black holes, asteroid belts etc. so its basically an entire map stretching from one edge of space to the other. And instead of just flying from one territory to another randomally, players actually exit one galaxy, e.g. the one with all the human planets, fly though some space, maybe dodge an asteroid field on the way, and enter a different galaxy with the Romulans planets or whatever. of course this would mean that this particular server would need the capacity to hold a few more players than just 16 split into 2 teams of 8. Prehaps there could be about 25 in each galaxy, and all 4 galaxy can be full at once? that would be awesome unless im just going over the top... lol. but compare this new server to the episodes of star-trek seen on TV, they would be quite similar, but with less talking and more fighting :P Thats it really. Just saying I thing Netrek is a cool game, and giving you the idea of this new server, and pointing out that more spaces for players would be a good idea. Prehaps you could make 2 or 3, maybe even 4 servers like this incase one of them got full. hope you take these ideas into consideration, and maybe even create the server for real. Yours jamestc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.us.netrek.org/pipermail/netrek-dev/attachments/20070306/e8411b64/attachment.htm From quozl at us.netrek.org Tue Mar 6 20:00:29 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 13:00:29 +1100 Subject: [netrek-dev] Email from a new player In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070307020029.GC4864@us.netrek.org> Several of his ideas are quite good, and map to what Kathy Sierra was saying in her presentation. The gradual revelation idea, the exploration of space, is a particularly attractive part of gaming. The only way we satisfy that at the moment is having the planets scanned by orbiting, or by the visibility of enemies according to proximity of friends. We could add a seen-on-tactical-by-team bit to each planet, and only send them out to the client when someone has visited recently. Certainly an idea for a sturgeon enhancement. We have pl_info, which is a mask of teams that have orbited a planet, and are kept informed after that about planet attributes, until the planet is taken. We could add pl_discovered, which would be a mask of teams that have seen the planet on the tactical. The actual implementation wouldn't be difficult. Is he willing to help? Here's a start ... diff -rN -u old-netrek-server/Vanilla/include/struct.h new-netrek-server/Vanilla/include/struct.h --- old-netrek-server/Vanilla/include/struct.h 2007-03-07 12:57:32.000000000 +1100 +++ new-netrek-server/Vanilla/include/struct.h 2007-03-07 12:57:35.000000000 +1100 @@ -586,6 +586,7 @@ int pl_info; /* Teams which have info on planets */ int pl_deadtime; /* Time before planet will support life */ int pl_couptime; /* Time before coup may take place */ + int pl_discovered; /* teams which have seen planet on tactical */ }; #define MVALID 0x01 -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From regrado at web.de Wed Mar 7 07:26:06 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 14:26:06 +0100 Subject: [netrek-dev] Email from a new player In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070307132606.GA8822@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- Joe Evango wrote on Tue 6.Mar'07 at 17:10:17 -0800 -= > He has some ideas for a new server which sounds similar to > Paradise but on a much larger scale. It sounds very much like Paradise. What scale? I guess more players? Planets? Shouldn't be too hard to expand that (0-9a-zA-Z + 2 more == 64 total players ;). > {...} but I told him I would forward his email onto the server > developers for review, so here you go: Let him join himself to take the flak. ;) At least tell him about Paradise and that he should give it a try. And visit #netrek + #paradise next to this list. Does Paradise have this ...? > But I think that there should be a server for the people who > like exploration and open space. Yes, with SC not needing to orbit (makes them "real" scouts ;). > Such as clouds of Nebula gas, Black holes, asteroid belts etc. > so its basically an entire map stretching from one edge of space > to the other. Yes, although many features appeared when the hightime has passed, so it wasn't tested to the limits. Having joined Kud's server a few weeks ago, it didn't feel error-free, or at least could be improved performance-wise. Or maybe my client was just too old. ;) > And instead of just flying from one territory to another > randomally, players actually exit one galaxy, e.g. the one with > all the human planets, fly though some space, maybe dodge an > asteroid field on the way, and enter a different galaxy with the > Romulans planets or whatever. Yes, that's Paradise's "real" warp. ;) > Prehaps there could be about 25 in each galaxy, and all 4 galaxy > can be full at once? that would be awesome unless im just going > over the top... lol. Uh, I guess that would be a _lot_ more players than ever had been on any P-server, but hey... why has '0' to be limited to just 1 race? Why not have F0-9a-zA-Z and likewise R0-9a-zA-Z, this gives 64/race. > but compare this new server to the episodes of star-trek seen on > TV, they would be quite similar, but with less talking and more > fighting :P a) Paradise is definitely closer to TNG. b) That doesn't mean there is _less_ talking than in Bronco. c) Talking is still very important, especially on the long lonesome warp trips to other galaxies, so ... combat- wise there is not necessarily more action, it's just different. d) But given the new range of possibilities, it likewise offers and requires a new range of strategies and tactics, which due to the nature of Bronco don't (can't) vary as much. > Thats it really. Just saying I thing Netrek is a cool game, and > giving you the idea of this new server, and pointing out that more > spaces for players would be a good idea. Prehaps you could make 2 > or 3, maybe even 4 servers like this incase one of them got full. *lol* > hope you take these ideas into consideration, and maybe even > create the server for real. Tell him about Paradise. -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL of it: you get what you give. From netrek at gmail.com Wed Mar 7 07:38:05 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 08:38:05 -0500 Subject: [netrek-dev] Email from a new player In-Reply-To: <20070307132606.GA8822@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> References: <20070307132606.GA8822@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: On 3/7/07, Rado S wrote: > Having joined Kud's server a few weeks ago, it didn't feel What is the server address? Zach From regrado at web.de Wed Mar 7 08:49:16 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 15:49:16 +0100 Subject: [netrek-dev] Email from a new player In-Reply-To: References: <20070307132606.GA8822@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <20070307144916.GB8822@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- Zach wrote on Wed 7.Mar'07 at 8:38:05 -0500 -= > On 3/7/07, Rado S wrote: > > Having joined Kud's server a few weeks ago, it didn't feel > > What is the server address? That was actually months ago, I'm not sure the server is still up, was for testing only. Ask Kud when you meet him in #netrek again. There are no known active P-servers around currently. Somebody has offered to run one once he gets to extend his server code to have solicitation (besides recovering from a general hardware(?) failure recently). When he succeeds, you'll see it in metas. ;) ("Somebody": don't be shy, ask for help if you need it. :) Zach: DO NOT bother to contact that "somebody", he'll get to us when ready for it (that's why I don't disclose his name right now). Then there was an uncontrolled one running at paradise.games.uk.demon.net, not sure what happened to it. I guess it's dead by now since nobody could find it anymore after the metas cleanup (yup, no response, it's dead, Jim). Let's see, maybe somebody (from #paradise?) can setup a functional server again soon, so that the newbies have a choice. Maybe this new player's thinking applies to more newbies in that the "richer" features of Paradise can better lure in/ keep newbies busy than Bronco, and later when they mature, they discover "the original game". -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL of it: you get what you give. From netrek at gmail.com Wed Mar 7 09:12:48 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 10:12:48 -0500 Subject: [netrek-dev] Email from a new player In-Reply-To: <20070307144916.GB8822@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> References: <20070307132606.GA8822@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070307144916.GB8822@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: On 3/7/07, Rado S wrote: > > That was actually months ago, I'm not sure the server is still up, > was for testing only. Ask Kud when you meet him in #netrek again. > > There are no known active P-servers around currently. > > Somebody has offered to run one once he gets to extend his server > code to have solicitation (besides recovering from a general > hardware(?) failure recently). > When he succeeds, you'll see it in metas. ;) > ("Somebody": don't be shy, ask for help if you need it. :) > > Zach: DO NOT bother to contact that "somebody", > he'll get to us when ready for it (that's why I don't disclose his > name right now). I can't contact someone if they don't know who they are so relax lol :-) > Then there was an uncontrolled one running at > paradise.games.uk.demon.net, not sure what happened to it. > I guess it's dead by now since nobody could find it anymore after > the metas cleanup (yup, no response, it's dead, Jim). There was another one but I can't find it no. > Let's see, maybe somebody (from #paradise?) can setup a functional > server again soon, so that the newbies have a choice. Didn't know about that channel cool. That is on Freenode I assume. > Maybe this new player's thinking applies to more newbies in that > the "richer" features of Paradise can better lure in/ keep newbies > busy than Bronco, and later when they mature, they discover "the > original game". Good idea. We must have at least ONE paradise server running! And it must have missiles :) Zach From darius at dons.net.au Sun Mar 11 18:27:01 2007 From: darius at dons.net.au (Daniel O'Connor) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 09:57:01 +1030 Subject: [netrek-dev] configure problems Message-ID: <200703120957.02476.darius@dons.net.au> I was chatting to someone in IRC (CC'd) who was trying to build the server and they got this problem which I could replicate.. [inchoate 9:38] ~/projects/netrek-server-vanilla-2.12.1 >env CPPFLAGS=-I/usr/local/include LDFLAGS=-L/usr/local/lib ./configure --prefix=/usr/local checking for used sources... Vanilla SERVER checking for a BSD-compatible install... /usr/bin/install -c checking for gcc... gcc checking for C compiler default output file name... a.out checking whether the C compiler works... yes checking whether we are cross compiling... no checking for suffix of executables... checking for suffix of object files... o checking whether we are using the GNU C compiler... yes checking whether gcc accepts -g... yes checking for gcc option to accept ISO C89... none needed checking how to run the C preprocessor... gcc -E checking whether ln -s works... yes checking whether make sets $(MAKE)... yes checking for grep that handles long lines and -e... /usr/bin/grep checking for egrep... /usr/bin/grep -E checking for AIX... no checking for inline... inline checking if fd_set requires sys/select.h... no checking for ANSI C header files... yes checking for sys/types.h... yes checking for sys/stat.h... yes checking for stdlib.h... yes checking for string.h... yes checking for memory.h... yes checking for strings.h... yes checking for inttypes.h... yes checking for stdint.h... yes checking for unistd.h... yes checking for unistd.h... (cached) yes checking for memory.h... (cached) yes checking math.h usability... yes checking math.h presence... yes checking for math.h... yes checking for stdlib.h... (cached) yes checking sys/timeb.h usability... yes checking sys/timeb.h presence... yes checking for sys/timeb.h... yes checking sys/ptyio.h usability... no checking sys/ptyio.h presence... no checking for sys/ptyio.h... no checking sys/fcntl.h usability... yes checking sys/fcntl.h presence... yes checking for sys/fcntl.h... yes checking fcntl.h usability... yes checking fcntl.h presence... yes checking for fcntl.h... yes checking ctype.h usability... yes checking ctype.h presence... yes checking for ctype.h... yes checking machine/endian.h usability... yes checking machine/endian.h presence... yes checking for machine/endian.h... yes checking sys/resource.h usability... yes checking sys/resource.h presence... yes checking for sys/resource.h... yes checking sys/wait.h usability... yes checking sys/wait.h presence... yes checking for sys/wait.h... yes checking netinet/in.h usability... yes checking netinet/in.h presence... yes checking for netinet/in.h... yes checking sys/filio.h usability... yes checking sys/filio.h presence... yes checking for sys/filio.h... yes checking gdbm.h usability... yes checking gdbm.h presence... yes checking for gdbm.h... yes checking ncurses.h usability... yes checking ncurses.h presence... yes checking for ncurses.h... yes checking for gdbm_open in -lgdbm... yes checking for wait3 that fills in rusage... yes checking for pid_t... yes checking for uid_t in sys/types.h... yes checking for size_t... yes checking vfork.h usability... no checking vfork.h presence... no checking for vfork.h... no checking for fork... yes checking for vfork... yes checking for working fork... yes checking for working vfork... (cached) yes checking whether struct tm is in sys/time.h or time.h... time.h checking for itimer in time.h... no checking for long... yes checking size of long... 4 checking for u_int in sys/types.h... yes checking for PATH_MAX in limits.h... yes checking for main in -lgdi32... no checking for X... libraries /usr/X11R6/lib, headers /usr/X11R6/include Warning: x_includes was going to be blank, check with quozl checking for mp.h... yes checking for gmp.h... yes yes checking res-rsa/configure... RSA utilities found checking for main in -lXbsd... no checking for main in -lsocket... no checking for main in -lresolv... no checking for main in -linet... no checking for main in -lnsl... no checking for main in -lseq... no checking for main in -lsun... no checking for main in -lipc... no checking for main in -lshm... no checking for main in -lstuff... no checking for crypt in -lcrypt... yes checking for main in -ltermcap... yes checking for newwin in -lncurses... yes checking return type of signal handlers... void checking for sys/wait.h that is POSIX.1 compatible... (cached) yes checking for restartable system calls... yes checking for signals style... BSD checking for usleep... yes checking for random... yes checking for setstate... yes checking for strftime... yes checking for ftime... no checking for strcmpi... no checking for strncmpi... no checking for main in -lm... yes checking for nint... no checking for nint in -lsunmath... no checking for random... (cached) yes checking for strdup... yes checking for rint... yes checking build system type... i386-unknown-freebsd7.0 checking host system type... i386-unknown-freebsd7.0 checking for a sed that does not truncate output... /usr/bin/sed checking for ld used by gcc... /usr/bin/ld checking if the linker (/usr/bin/ld) is GNU ld... yes checking for /usr/bin/ld option to reload object files... -r checking for BSD-compatible nm... /usr/bin/nm -B checking how to recognise dependent libraries... pass_all checking dlfcn.h usability... yes checking dlfcn.h presence... yes checking for dlfcn.h... yes checking for g++... g++ checking whether we are using the GNU C++ compiler... yes checking whether g++ accepts -g... yes checking how to run the C++ preprocessor... g++ -E checking for g77... no checking for xlf... no checking for f77... f77 checking whether we are using the GNU Fortran 77 compiler... yes checking whether f77 accepts -g... yes checking the maximum length of command line arguments... 196608 checking command to parse /usr/bin/nm -B output from gcc object... ok checking for objdir... .libs checking for ar... ar checking for ranlib... ranlib checking for strip... strip checking if gcc supports -fno-rtti -fno-exceptions... no checking for gcc option to produce PIC... -fPIC checking if gcc PIC flag -fPIC works... yes checking if gcc static flag -static works... yes checking if gcc supports -c -o file.o... yes checking whether the gcc linker (/usr/bin/ld) supports shared libraries... yes checking whether -lc should be explicitly linked in... yes checking dynamic linker characteristics... freebsd7.0 ld.so checking how to hardcode library paths into programs... immediate checking whether stripping libraries is possible... yes checking if libtool supports shared libraries... yes checking whether to build shared libraries... yes checking whether to build static libraries... yes checking for OSX ranlib... drat - yes checking for netstat... yes checking for uptime... yes configure: creating ./config.status config.status: creating system.mk config.status: creating Makefile config.status: creating ntserv/Makefile config.status: creating tools/Makefile config.status: creating sequencer/Makefile config.status: creating newstartd/Makefile config.status: creating robots/Makefile config.status: creating keycomp/Makefile config.status: creating xsg/Makefile config.status: creating pledit/Makefile config.status: creating robotd/Makefile config.status: creating docs/Makefile config.status: creating tools/no_geno_timer config.status: creating tools/geno_timer config.status: creating docs/sample_geno_timer_crontab config.status: creating docs/sample_sysdef config.status: creating tools/setpath config.status: creating tools/setpath.csh config.status: creating include/config.h config.status: include/config.h is unchanged === configuring in res-rsa (/usr/home/darius/projects/netrek-server-vanilla-2.12.1/res-rsa) configure: running /usr/local/bin/bash ./configure '--prefix=/usr/local' 'LDFLAGS=-L/usr/local/lib' 'CPPFLAGS=-I/usr/local/include' --cache-file=/dev/null --srcdir=. configure: warning: LDFLAGS=-L/usr/local/lib: invalid host type configure: warning: CPPFLAGS=-I/usr/local/include: invalid host type configure: error: can only configure for one host and one target at a time configure: error: ./configure failed for res-rsa If I disable res-rsa configure finishes fine but building doesn't work.. [inchoate 9:40] ~/projects/netrek-server-vanilla-2.12.1 >gmake cd ntserv; gmake libnetrek.a gmake[1]: Entering directory `/usr/home/darius/projects/netrek-server-vanilla-2.12.1/ntserv' gcc -g -O2 -Wall -I../include -c -o alarm.o alarm.c gcc -g -O2 -Wall -I../include -c -o balance.o balance.c gcc -g -O2 -Wall -I../include -c -o bans.o bans.c gcc -g -O2 -Wall -I../include -c -o bay.o bay.c gcc -g -O2 -Wall -I../include -c -o blog.o blog.c gcc -g -O2 -Wall -I../include -c -o coup.o coup.c gcc -g -O2 -Wall -I../include -c -o data.o data.c gcc -g -O2 -Wall -I../include -c db.c db.c:14:18: gdbm.h: No such file or directory db.c: In function `db_index_fetch': It would appear that the Makefiles do not honour the CPPFLAGS/CFLAGS/LDFFLAGS passed in via env vars to configure, hence the build fails. I will try and fix it but me and autotools are not good friends so perhaps someone with more experience could have a go. -- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum GPG Fingerprint - 5596 B766 97C0 0E94 4347 295E E593 DC20 7B3F CE8C -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 187 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.us.netrek.org/pipermail/netrek-dev/attachments/20070312/2a61eaaf/attachment.pgp From narcis at luky.nl Mon Mar 12 17:34:06 2007 From: narcis at luky.nl (Narcis) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 23:34:06 +0100 Subject: [netrek-dev] RCD... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <63856390-77D5-4A66-8A16-A94FB20E13B3@luky.nl> G'day, i'm trying to create RCD and have implemented most as a distress which gets converted to a message string and then send as macro. This seems to work, but the other side is not interpreting it as a RCD but as a general macro. So what makes a RCD a RCD? I've browsed most of the client code but have a hard time tracking what happens to the message. (that is i see no difference) any insight would be greatly appreciated, Chris From carlos at jpl.nasa.gov Mon Mar 12 18:00:00 2007 From: carlos at jpl.nasa.gov (Carlos Y. Villalpando) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:00:00 -0700 Subject: [netrek-dev] RCD... In-Reply-To: <63856390-77D5-4A66-8A16-A94FB20E13B3@luky.nl> References: <63856390-77D5-4A66-8A16-A94FB20E13B3@luky.nl> Message-ID: <20070312230000.GA2944@carlos-desktop> Ah, looking at an old explaination from the hockey RCD dust-up from ages ago. (1998) --Carlos V. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well... here's how it works.... Each RC_DISTRESS compatible client can make the distress call appear as whatever you like through their .xtrekrc... If you DONT have a new enough client the server will do a default parsing of the distress call and you will see it like that. Also if the server is old then the distress call sent out by each client will appear the way _the sender_ likes to have them displayed. Let me summarize with an example: F0 likes 'F' to say 'Carrying 4 maggots.' F1 likes 'F' to say 'Carrying 4 armies.' F2 likes 'F' to say 'Carrying 4 lawyers. 20% fuel' The server default is 'Carrying 4.' Note: Advanced RC_DISTRESS users should note that 'F' can be remapped easily in at least 2 different ways. For example throught .xtrekrc dist.(.carrying: %T%c: Carrying %a maggots. singleMacro: ( (this will make 'X(' or '(' be the same as 'F' used to be) There will be more documentation on this coming later but basically the syntax is the same as SMARTMACRO and NEWMACRO. ----------- On a NEW server: Case 1: All of them are using a new client. F1 will ALWAYS see 'Carrying x armies.' No matter who sent it. Case 2: Only F1 is using an old client. F1 will see the _server_ set defaults for the carrying call from everybody. Note that the calls from F0 and F2 will appear in the same format to him on this server (but may appear in a different format on different servers). F2 and F0 will see F1's client-defined distress calls. --------------- On an old server: F1 will see whatever the sender likes to see (in this case the sender sends the pre-formatted text instead of the RC_DISTRESS short-hand). So a 'F' from F2 will appear to everybody as: 'Carrying 4 lawyers. 20% fuel' a 'F' from F0 will appear to everybody as: 'Carrying 4 maggots.' From carlos at jpl.nasa.gov Mon Mar 12 17:57:33 2007 From: carlos at jpl.nasa.gov (Carlos Y. Villalpando) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 15:57:33 -0700 Subject: [netrek-dev] RCD... In-Reply-To: <63856390-77D5-4A66-8A16-A94FB20E13B3@luky.nl> References: <63856390-77D5-4A66-8A16-A94FB20E13B3@luky.nl> Message-ID: <20070312225733.GA3520@carlos-desktop> You have no control on what the other side does with an RCD. That's why it's called a Receiver Configurable Distress. If you want to send the 'taking' RCD, your client will send the 'taking' token to the appropriate receivers, and those receivers display that token depending on how each individual receiver has configured displaying that token. If either the server or the receiver's client does not support RCDs, or has RCDs turned off, they degenerate into macros and the receiver will see the text you sent. --Carlos V. From xyzzy at speakeasy.org Mon Mar 12 18:54:12 2007 From: xyzzy at speakeasy.org (Trent Piepho) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:54:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [netrek-dev] RCD... In-Reply-To: <63856390-77D5-4A66-8A16-A94FB20E13B3@luky.nl> References: <63856390-77D5-4A66-8A16-A94FB20E13B3@luky.nl> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Mar 2007, Narcis wrote: > i'm trying to create RCD and have implemented most as a distress > which gets converted to a message string and then send as macro. This > seems to work, but the other side is not interpreting it as a RCD but > as a general macro. So what makes a RCD a RCD? When you send an RCD, it sends a special message with with the RCD flag set. The message is just a few bytes that encode the RCD number (distress, carry, take, etc.) and things like the sender's wtemp and etemp, armies carried, ship nearest their mouse cursor, etc. The format of these bytes is documented in the client source somewhere. The receiver is the one responsible for turning this into actual text. For beeplite, it can be turned into graphical cues. In Paradise-2000, custom voice messages can be played with information from the RCD in them. That's one of my features that no one has managed to copy yet. From quozl at us.netrek.org Tue Mar 13 02:11:01 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 18:11:01 +1100 Subject: [netrek-dev] Email from a new player In-Reply-To: <20070307132606.GA8822@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> References: <20070307132606.GA8822@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <20070313071101.GC13308@us.netrek.org> On Wed, Mar 07, 2007 at 02:26:06PM +0100, Rado S wrote: > Yes, with SC not needing to orbit (makes them "real" scouts ;). That sounds useful. I'd take a patch that adds that as a sysdef controlled feature. PARADISE_SC_PLANET_VIEW perhaps? > > And instead of just flying from one territory to another > > randomally, players actually exit one galaxy, e.g. the one with > > all the human planets, fly though some space, maybe dodge an > > asteroid field on the way, and enter a different galaxy with the > > Romulans planets or whatever. > > Yes, that's Paradise's "real" warp. ;) But Paradise keeps everything on the same galactic, right? If we ever need exploration of an area larger than the galactic, the server could keep an internal set of coordinates for objects, and give a limited galactic view by providing only some objects with an offset. Then it would work with older clients. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From regrado at web.de Tue Mar 13 06:47:51 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 12:47:51 +0100 Subject: [netrek-dev] Email from a new player In-Reply-To: <20070313071101.GC13308@us.netrek.org> References: <20070307132606.GA8822@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070313071101.GC13308@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: <20070313114751.GA16428@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- James Quick wrote on Tue 13.Mar'07 at 18:11:01 +1100 -= > > Yes, that's Paradise's "real" warp. ;) > > But Paradise keeps everything on the same galactic, right? Paradise has 200Kx200K universe. There is total view (6x6 sector grids, all objects packed tightly) and zoomed view (3x3 == 1/4 total ~= Bronco size [120Kx120K?!]). > If we ever need exploration of an area larger than the galactic, > the server could keep an internal set of coordinates for > objects, and give a limited galactic view by providing only some > objects with an offset. Then it would work with older clients. Paradise does this zooming client-side IIRC. BTW, what happened to this new player? Can we talk to him live (here, rgn or #netrek)? -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL of it: you get what you give. From regrado at web.de Tue Mar 13 06:52:22 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 12:52:22 +0100 Subject: [netrek-dev] RCD... In-Reply-To: References: <63856390-77D5-4A66-8A16-A94FB20E13B3@luky.nl> Message-ID: <20070313115221.GB16428@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- Trent Piepho wrote on Mon 12.Mar'07 at 16:54:12 -0700 -= > When you send an RCD, it sends a special message with with the > RCD flag set. The message is just a few bytes that encode the > RCD number (distress, carry, take, etc.) and things like the > sender's wtemp and etemp, armies carried, ship nearest their > mouse cursor, etc. What I missed for the RCDs is all the nice Paradise macro features. Have/ can you extend(ed) it to make use of them in RCD, too? > In Paradise-2000, custom voice messages can be played with > information from the RCD in them. That's one of my features that > no one has managed to copy yet. D'oh, are we in some kind of coding competition? I thought we were a community to work together == share and help each other rather than stay for oneself. -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL of it: you get what you give. From netrek at gmail.com Tue Mar 13 12:38:03 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 12:38:03 -0500 Subject: [netrek-dev] Email from a new player In-Reply-To: <20070313114751.GA16428@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> References: <20070307132606.GA8822@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070313071101.GC13308@us.netrek.org> <20070313114751.GA16428@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: On 3/13/07, Rado S wrote: > Paradise has 200Kx200K universe. > There is total view (6x6 sector grids, all objects packed tightly) > and zoomed view (3x3 == 1/4 total ~= Bronco size [120Kx120K?!]). I think bronco is 100Kx100K universe. Zach From williamb at its.caltech.edu Tue Mar 13 13:38:24 2007 From: williamb at its.caltech.edu (William Balcerski) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 11:38:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [netrek-dev] RCD... In-Reply-To: <20070313115221.GB16428@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> References: <63856390-77D5-4A66-8A16-A94FB20E13B3@luky.nl> <20070313115221.GB16428@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: > What I missed for the RCDs is all the nice Paradise macro features. > Have/ can you extend(ed) it to make use of them in RCD, too? > > > In Paradise-2000, custom voice messages can be played with > > information from the RCD in them. That's one of my features that > > no one has managed to copy yet. > > D'oh, are we in some kind of coding competition? > I thought we were a community to work together > == share and help each other rather than stay for oneself. > At least some good came out of Trent's post, I found another feature to liberate from his code base, his auto-declare peace on entry stuff. I didn't think the voice stuff was worth taking. Any useful features in Paradise-2000 can (and have been) recoded into public source. Features added to XP 2006 include a large number of things that were found only in Paradise-2000. From xyzzy at speakeasy.org Tue Mar 13 14:03:34 2007 From: xyzzy at speakeasy.org (Trent Piepho) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 12:03:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [netrek-dev] RCD... In-Reply-To: References: <63856390-77D5-4A66-8A16-A94FB20E13B3@luky.nl> <20070313115221.GB16428@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Mar 2007, William Balcerski wrote: > > What I missed for the RCDs is all the nice Paradise macro features. > > Have/ can you extend(ed) it to make use of them in RCD, too? > > > > > In Paradise-2000, custom voice messages can be played with > > > information from the RCD in them. That's one of my features that > > > no one has managed to copy yet. > > > > D'oh, are we in some kind of coding competition? > > I thought we were a community to work together Tell that to the people who try get every feature I think of called borg. Tell that to the people who release microsoft only clients. Tell that to people who don't have the decency to credit others as their source when they copy them. > > == share and help each other rather than stay for oneself. > > > At least some good came out of Trent's post, I found another feature to > liberate from his code base, his auto-declare peace on entry stuff. I > didn't think the voice stuff was worth taking. Any useful features in Bill, admit it, you'd love to copy my voice stuff but you can't figure out how. > Paradise-2000 can (and have been) recoded into public source. Features > added to XP 2006 include a large number of things that were found only in > Paradise-2000. So why don't you credit me as the source of "a large number of things" instead of pretending they were your ideas? From jjadeinc at hotmail.com Tue Mar 13 14:42:31 2007 From: jjadeinc at hotmail.com (Joe Evango) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 13:42:31 -0600 Subject: [netrek-dev] Email from a new player In-Reply-To: <20070313114751.GA16428@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: His name is James Turner-Crowe. I just sent him an email requesting he join this mailing list with instructions on how to join. -Joe >From: Rado S >Reply-To: Netrek Development Mailing List >To: netrek-dev at us.netrek.org >Subject: Re: [netrek-dev] Email from a new player >Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 12:47:51 +0100 > > >BTW, what happened to this new player? >Can we talk to him live (here, rgn or #netrek)? > >-- >? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! >EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. >You're responsible for ALL of it: you get what you give. > >_______________________________________________ >netrek-dev mailing list >netrek-dev at us.netrek.org >http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev _________________________________________________________________ With tax season right around the corner, make sure to follow these few simple tips. http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Taxes/PreparationTips/PreparationTips.aspx?icid=HMFebtagline From regrado at web.de Tue Mar 13 15:24:58 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 21:24:58 +0100 Subject: [netrek-dev] RCD..., borgs, support, community In-Reply-To: References: <63856390-77D5-4A66-8A16-A94FB20E13B3@luky.nl> <20070313115221.GB16428@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <20070313202458.GI16428@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- Trent Piepho wrote on Tue 13.Mar'07 at 12:03:34 -0700 -= > > > What I missed for the RCDs is all the nice Paradise macro features. > > > Have/ can you extend(ed) it to make use of them in RCD, too? What about this one? > > > D'oh, are we in some kind of coding competition? > > > I thought we were a community to work together > > Tell that to the people who release microsoft only clients. And you counter bad support with the same bad support? Hey, you're so much better. :-/ > Tell that to the people who try get every feature I think of called borg. Neither of the 2 are reason to keep your stuff for yourself. As I've learned from James, not all things called "borg" are borg. As long as only information that is already available is used (i.e. you have no _more_ info than other players might have), then it's just a matter of taste how the available info is presented: if the client has the info, go for it. I fully agree with that. Even more so, given the need for easier access to the game, I'd welcome that _all_ info would be presented to the (newbie) players as easily as possible. All team-info == good (display as you see fit), enemy-info (beyond pos visible to own team) == bad. Do not "create" info == compute new info from given info (like aiming aids for cloakers) People crying "info-borg" should think what they prefer: - clueless twinks they can yell at and out of the game, - newbies who learn to do the right things by doing what the info/ client tells them even though they might not yet grasp the underlying reasons/ concepts for it, and before they can figure out how to _talk/read_? Many people act first, think/ talk later. :( As much as this is against the _ideal_ netrek player, that's how newbies get into it. So called "info-borgs" do _not_ destroy the game: despite having the info visible (and you might know what to do with that info for yourself), you _still_ have to coordinate with your team to succeed (unless your whole team communicates via ESP/ telepathy). Quiet newbies with the info ready can still be useful even though they are mute. Over time they'll want more and begin to learn, eventually talk/ read. > Tell that to people who don't have the decency to credit others > as their source when they copy them. There is nothing you lose when you share your code with the community. Quite the opposite: when you share, then all win. The community _knows_ what you do (or don't) and they are the only who matter, not single childish lamers to whom you pay too much attention. If you share your achievements publicly, then the public will know. That's the safest way to get credit (and respect). (as example: nobody can claim to own linux, or when they do, they fail because the community wouldn't let it happen, they know better) You distrust anyone (everyone?) of the netrek "board" (the people who currently run what keeps netrek alive)? What _exact_ netrek incident are you talking about where you have been mistreated? > > Paradise-2000 can (and have been) recoded into public source. > > Features added to XP 2006 include a large number of things > > that were found only in Paradise-2000. > > So why don't you credit me as the source of "a large number of > things" instead of pretending they were your ideas? Why are you insisting so much on this credit thing? Are we talking here about some money? You can't credit ideas. Many people have ideas, but not all people implement them nor all ideas get implemented. In a shared project this even doesn't matter. The only people netrek has to fight are outside lawyers who want to make money with other people's work, not inside members. If it's not for the money, what else is credit good for? Among us, the netrek community anyway?! Open your code, let people see, then you get credit where credit is due. If you'd open up, you might notice that others have ideas, too. But you don't even give a chance for that. You are not the only/ 1st person who can do things. But even if, why not share it with those who will respect you for what you do? (the community as whole) Not all are childish ("stealing your credit"). Answering such childishness with likewise childishness doesn't bring you more credit. As you might have learned (or not), people don't remember you as "hey, give him credit for XYZ" (even if you deserved it!), but rather "hey, he's the one who takes other peoples' credit to brag about the own that he built on top of it without returning it back for what he got for free" and justifies it by "others stealing from him", when there is no such a thing like "stealing credit" possible in open source, but rather waste of resources for locked code that has to be recoded. Is this the kind of credit you are after? And then there are those who make fun of you because of this, and you still jump on it to defend rather than to "get a clue". Taking open code and locking it away from others is stealing. If you want to make money with it, fine. Otherwise let it live and grow openly and freely to flourish for all, even for you with the help of others. What good is it to have different people do the same thing? Isn't it better to save the time to have 2 new things instead? -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From quozl at us.netrek.org Tue Mar 13 16:51:12 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 08:51:12 +1100 Subject: [netrek-dev] RCD..., borgs, support, community In-Reply-To: <20070313202458.GI16428@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> References: <63856390-77D5-4A66-8A16-A94FB20E13B3@luky.nl> <20070313115221.GB16428@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070313202458.GI16428@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <20070313215112.GA5507@us.netrek.org> Calm down kiddies. Trent has the right under the ambiguous licensing of the source he started with to lock it up, Bill has the right under the ambiguous licensing of Paradise-2000 to implement what he likes, and I've tried hard to keep up with Bill's changes and push what I like into COW on Linux. Where I have noticed that the feature was reverse engineered from Paradise-2000, I've tried to make a note of that in the COW commits. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From netrek at gmail.com Tue Mar 13 18:12:28 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 18:12:28 -0500 Subject: [netrek-dev] RCD..., borgs, support, community In-Reply-To: <20070313202458.GI16428@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> References: <63856390-77D5-4A66-8A16-A94FB20E13B3@luky.nl> <20070313115221.GB16428@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070313202458.GI16428@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: I think Rado eloquently described the meritocracy of the open source philosophy. When code is shared it benefits the entire community. If someone was the first to think of a certain feature and the first to realize it in code or in a novel fashion then yes they should be credited. Not getting into legal matters it seems to me to be an issue of common courtesy and intellectual honesty. There is a GPL project that tracks down commercial companies who have basically taken GPL released code and are using it to make money without any proper attribution, further they are also violating other portions of the GPL. This is reprehensible but it still happens. The more eyes looking at code the better I say. Zach On 3/13/07, Rado S wrote: > =- Trent Piepho wrote on Tue 13.Mar'07 at 12:03:34 -0700 -= > > > > > What I missed for the RCDs is all the nice Paradise macro features. > > > > Have/ can you extend(ed) it to make use of them in RCD, too? > > What about this one? > > > > > D'oh, are we in some kind of coding competition? > > > > I thought we were a community to work together > > > > Tell that to the people who release microsoft only clients. > > And you counter bad support with the same bad support? > Hey, you're so much better. :-/ > > > Tell that to the people who try get every feature I think of called borg. > > Neither of the 2 are reason to keep your stuff for yourself. > > > As I've learned from James, not all things called "borg" are borg. > As long as only information that is already available is used > (i.e. you have no _more_ info than other players might have), > then it's just a matter of taste how the available info is > presented: if the client has the info, go for it. > I fully agree with that. > > Even more so, given the need for easier access to the game, I'd > welcome that _all_ info would be presented to the (newbie) players > as easily as possible. > > All team-info == good (display as you see fit), > enemy-info (beyond pos visible to own team) == bad. > Do not "create" info == compute new info from given info (like > aiming aids for cloakers) > > People crying "info-borg" should think what they prefer: > - clueless twinks they can yell at and out of the game, > - newbies who learn to do the right things by doing what the info/ > client tells them even though they might not yet grasp the > underlying reasons/ concepts for it, and before they can figure > out how to _talk/read_? > > Many people act first, think/ talk later. :( > As much as this is against the _ideal_ netrek player, that's how > newbies get into it. > > So called "info-borgs" do _not_ destroy the game: despite having > the info visible (and you might know what to do with that info for > yourself), you _still_ have to coordinate with your team to > succeed (unless your whole team communicates via ESP/ telepathy). > Quiet newbies with the info ready can still be useful even though > they are mute. Over time they'll want more and begin to learn, > eventually talk/ read. > > > Tell that to people who don't have the decency to credit others > > as their source when they copy them. > > There is nothing you lose when you share your code with the > community. Quite the opposite: when you share, then all win. > The community _knows_ what you do (or don't) and they are the only > who matter, not single childish lamers to whom you pay too much > attention. > > If you share your achievements publicly, then the public will know. > That's the safest way to get credit (and respect). > (as example: nobody can claim to own linux, or when they do, they fail > because the community wouldn't let it happen, they know better) > > You distrust anyone (everyone?) of the netrek "board" (the people > who currently run what keeps netrek alive)? > > What _exact_ netrek incident are you talking about where you have > been mistreated? > > > > Paradise-2000 can (and have been) recoded into public source. > > > Features added to XP 2006 include a large number of things > > > that were found only in Paradise-2000. > > > > So why don't you credit me as the source of "a large number of > > things" instead of pretending they were your ideas? > > Why are you insisting so much on this credit thing? > Are we talking here about some money? > You can't credit ideas. Many people have ideas, but not all people > implement them nor all ideas get implemented. > > In a shared project this even doesn't matter. The only people > netrek has to fight are outside lawyers who want to make money > with other people's work, not inside members. > If it's not for the money, what else is credit good for? > Among us, the netrek community anyway?! > > Open your code, let people see, then you get credit where credit > is due. If you'd open up, you might notice that others have ideas, > too. But you don't even give a chance for that. > You are not the only/ 1st person who can do things. > > But even if, why not share it with those who will respect you for > what you do? (the community as whole) > > Not all are childish ("stealing your credit"). > Answering such childishness with likewise childishness doesn't > bring you more credit. As you might have learned (or not), people > don't remember you as > "hey, give him credit for XYZ" (even if you deserved it!), > but rather > "hey, he's the one who takes other peoples' credit to brag > about the own that he built on top of it without returning > it back for what he got for free" > and justifies it by "others stealing from him", when there is no > such a thing like "stealing credit" possible in open source, but > rather waste of resources for locked code that has to be recoded. > Is this the kind of credit you are after? > > And then there are those who make fun of you because of this, and > you still jump on it to defend rather than to "get a clue". > > Taking open code and locking it away from others is stealing. > If you want to make money with it, fine. > Otherwise let it live and grow openly and freely to flourish for all, > even for you with the help of others. > What good is it to have different people do the same thing? > Isn't it better to save the time to have 2 new things instead? > > -- > (c) Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! > EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. > You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. > > _______________________________________________ > netrek-dev mailing list > netrek-dev at us.netrek.org > http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev > From jjadeinc at hotmail.com Wed Mar 14 11:36:43 2007 From: jjadeinc at hotmail.com (Joe Evango) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 10:36:43 -0600 Subject: [netrek-dev] Need help troubleshooting a Windows 98 problem Message-ID: Was hoping someone could help me troubleshoot a problem some people are having with Windows 98. Have seen several comments regarding some people having trouble running XP Mod 4.4.0.4 and XP 2006 on Windows 98. I am trying to find out if there is a compatibility issue with the actual clients, the installer, or the tutorial and config utility. If someone is using Windows 98 can you download and try installing both Windows clients listed on playnetrek.org? If it is failing during the install please let me know at which point during the install this is happening. If there are any error messages also make note of those as well. Please email me the results. Thanks much, Joe _________________________________________________________________ Get a FREE Web site, company branded e-mail and more from Microsoft Office Live! http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/ From jrd at gerdesas.com Wed Mar 14 11:46:26 2007 From: jrd at gerdesas.com (John R. Dennison) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:46:26 -0500 Subject: [netrek-dev] Need help troubleshooting a Windows 98 problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070314164626.GL16322@mail.beanhq.com> On Wed, Mar 14, 2007 at 10:36:43AM -0600, Joe Evango wrote: > Was hoping someone could help me troubleshoot a problem some people are > having with Windows 98. Have seen several comments regarding some people > having trouble running XP Mod 4.4.0.4 and XP 2006 on Windows 98. I am under the impression from comments made by Bill that the 4.4.0.4 release of XP Mod does not run under '98 at all. > I am trying to find out if there is a compatibility issue with the actual > clients, the installer, or the tutorial and config utility. If someone is > using Windows 98 can you download and try installing both Windows clients > listed on playnetrek.org? If it is failing during the install please let me > know at which point during the install this is happening. If there are any > error messages also make note of those as well. Please email me the > results. Might I enquire as to why you are concerned with '98? The OS has not been supported for a long time, it's legacy, and people need to upgrade to a supported OS. John -- "I'm sorry but our engineers do not have phones." As stated by a Network Solutions Customer Service representative when asked to be put through to an engineer. "My other computer is your windows box." Ralf Hildebrandt -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.us.netrek.org/pipermail/netrek-dev/attachments/20070314/1a9fb8b4/attachment.pgp From sgtjiminy at hotmail.com Wed Mar 14 12:06:42 2007 From: sgtjiminy at hotmail.com (James Turner-Crowe) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 17:06:42 +0000 Subject: [netrek-dev] Need help troubleshooting a Windows 98 problem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here goes.... >Netrek Classic (2MB) I downloaded, Installed and set up the Config, when through the quick Tutorial etc. When I double clicked the "Netrek" symbol on my desktop it said this: / ! \ The NETREK.EXE file is linked to missing export GDI32.DLL:AddFontResourceExA [ok] in that exact text. >Netrek XP 2006 (8MB) ho hum.... my pc isnt the fastest in the world, but im sure if my mums pc can play it my one can (if the errors can be fixed of course) when the download finished this came up: (x) D:\Netrek\netrek.exe A device attached to the system is not functioning This could be because I tried to run netrek classic again halfway through the download, or just another message for Netrek Classic. I did install it onto my D drive. Installation was fine, and once finished the Netrek XP 2006 Sever List opened auto The good news it that I can play it....... but the planets are just Circles with names underneath them... also, it just mucked up after a minute of flying around... the main screen with all the ships and planets on cloned itself onto the list of players, then the main one next to the galaxy map froze completely. when i moved the "clone" up into the middle of the screen, it wasnt enlarged. the small section of the box was the only part of it (the section was the same size as the players list, and the players list was gone) last time i tried to play it, it was all just bliking and lagging. but since then i have uninstalled and reinstalled 2 or three times lol. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Hotmail is evolving - check out the new Windows Live Mail. http://ideas.live.co.uk/ From jjadeinc at hotmail.com Wed Mar 14 12:10:07 2007 From: jjadeinc at hotmail.com (Joe Evango) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:10:07 -0600 Subject: [netrek-dev] Need help troubleshooting a Windows 98 problem In-Reply-To: <20070314164626.GL16322@mail.beanhq.com> Message-ID: I agree it is an old OS but I am finding people still using it. Seems like a lot of people in countries outside the U.S. still use it and also students who have had computers given to them and can't afford to upgrade. I remember the days of having to eat top ramen and hot dogs so I can relate. If the problem is with the installer or any of the VB apps I would like to either use a different installer or modify the VB apps to help accommodate these users. I thought XP Mod 4.4.0.2 with the installer and config utility worked on Windows 98 in 2004 but I have applied some great MS service packs for Visual Studio since then and I am wondering if I got hit with the typical results of a Microsoft update, fix one thing and break another. -Joe >From: "John R. Dennison" >To: Joe Evango > > Might I enquire as to why you are concerned with '98? The OS > has not been supported for a long time, it's legacy, and people > need to upgrade to a supported OS. > > _________________________________________________________________ Mortgage rates as low as 4.625% - Refinance $150,000 loan for $579 a month. Intro*Terms https://www2.nextag.com/goto.jsp?product=100000035&url=%2fst.jsp&tm=y&search=mortgage_text_links_88_h27f6&disc=y&vers=743&s=4056&p=5117 From jjadeinc at hotmail.com Wed Mar 14 12:22:12 2007 From: jjadeinc at hotmail.com (Joe Evango) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:22:12 -0600 Subject: [netrek-dev] Need help troubleshooting a Windows 98 problem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thank you very much James! Good to see you on the list. For those wanting to speak with the player who emailed me those server ideas last week James Turner-Crowe is the guy. -Joe >From: "James Turner-Crowe" >Reply-To: Netrek Development Mailing List >To: netrek-dev at us.netrek.org >Subject: Re: [netrek-dev] Need help troubleshooting a Windows 98 problem >Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 17:06:42 +0000 > >Here goes.... > > >Netrek Classic (2MB) >I downloaded, Installed and set up the Config, when through the quick >Tutorial etc. >When I double clicked the "Netrek" symbol on my desktop it said this: > >/ ! \ The NETREK.EXE file is >linked to missing export GDI32.DLL:AddFontResourceExA >[ok] > >in that exact text. > > >Netrek XP 2006 (8MB) > >ho hum.... my pc isnt the fastest in the world, but im sure if my mums pc >can play it my one can >(if the errors can be fixed of course) > >when the download finished this came up: > >(x) D:\Netrek\netrek.exe >A device attached to the system is not functioning > >This could be because I tried to run netrek classic again halfway through >the download, or just another message for Netrek Classic. I did install it >onto my D drive. > >Installation was fine, and once finished the Netrek XP 2006 Sever List >opened auto > >The good news it that I can play it....... but the planets are just Circles >with names underneath them... >also, it just mucked up after a minute of flying around... the main screen >with all the ships and planets on cloned itself onto the list of players, >then the main one next to the galaxy map froze completely. when i moved the >"clone" up into the middle of the screen, it wasnt enlarged. the small >section of the box was the only part of it (the section was the same size >as >the players list, and the players list was gone) > >last time i tried to play it, it was all just bliking and lagging. but >since >then i have uninstalled and reinstalled 2 or three times lol. > >_________________________________________________________________ >MSN Hotmail is evolving - check out the new Windows Live Mail. >http://ideas.live.co.uk/ > > >_______________________________________________ >netrek-dev mailing list >netrek-dev at us.netrek.org >http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev _________________________________________________________________ Get a FREE Web site, company branded e-mail and more from Microsoft Office Live! http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/ From keyos at keyos.org Wed Mar 14 12:22:51 2007 From: keyos at keyos.org (Stas Pirogov) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 19:22:51 +0200 (IST) Subject: [netrek-dev] Need help troubleshooting a Windows 98 problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Latest additions to XP Mod (double buffering IIRC) made it only playable on XP/2000 + systems. Microsoft do not backport newer SDK functions to not supported OSes. If you want to play on Win98 you should either use older versions of NetrekXP (not sure if they are still available on netrek.org) or use COW instead (it should work on any windows system that has cygwin support). Stas. On Wed, 14 Mar 2007, Joe Evango wrote: > Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:10:07 -0600 > From: Joe Evango > Reply-To: joe at playnetrek.org, > Netrek Development Mailing List > To: netrek-dev at us.netrek.org > Subject: Re: [netrek-dev] Need help troubleshooting a Windows 98 problem > > I agree it is an old OS but I am finding people still using it. Seems like > a lot of people in countries outside the U.S. still use it and also students > who have had computers given to them and can't afford to upgrade. I > remember the days of having to eat top ramen and hot dogs so I can relate. > If the problem is with the installer or any of the VB apps I would like to > either use a different installer or modify the VB apps to help accommodate > these users. > > I thought XP Mod 4.4.0.2 with the installer and config utility worked on > Windows 98 in 2004 but I have applied some great MS service packs for Visual > Studio since then and I am wondering if I got hit with the typical results > of a Microsoft update, fix one thing and break another. > > -Joe > > >From: "John R. Dennison" > >To: Joe Evango > > > > Might I enquire as to why you are concerned with '98? The OS > > has not been supported for a long time, it's legacy, and people > > need to upgrade to a supported OS. > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Mortgage rates as low as 4.625% - Refinance $150,000 loan for $579 a month. > Intro*Terms > https://www2.nextag.com/goto.jsp?product=100000035&url=%2fst.jsp&tm=y&search=mortgage_text_links_88_h27f6&disc=y&vers=743&s=4056&p=5117 > > > _______________________________________________ > netrek-dev mailing list > netrek-dev at us.netrek.org > http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev > From narcis at luky.nl Wed Mar 14 13:52:32 2007 From: narcis at luky.nl (Narcis) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 19:52:32 +0100 Subject: [netrek-dev] RCD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <915B6775-DC9D-4BF9-A46A-5637B1567050@luky.nl> Thanks for all the great reponses. > On Mon, 12 Mar 2007, Narcis wrote: >> i'm trying to create RCD and have implemented most as a distress >> which gets converted to a message string and then send as macro. This >> seems to work, but the other side is not interpreting it as a RCD but >> as a general macro. So what makes a RCD a RCD? > > When you send an RCD, it sends a special message with with the RCD > flag > set. The message is just a few bytes that encode the RCD number > (distress, > carry, take, etc.) and things like the sender's wtemp and etemp, > armies > carried, ship nearest their mouse cursor, etc. > > The format of these bytes is documented in the client source > somewhere. > Yes i finally tracked down where in the code, and see it is building a message string (bytes) which the client or server handles differently. I believe it is using hte first byte to discover it is an RCD and not a normal message: buffer[0] = (char)((macro_flag ? 1 : 0) << 5 | distress_type); Since Normal messages are sent in the same way (CP_MESSAGE) on the receive side i see it is handled through short packages SP_S_WARNING similar to other messages but using the second byte to switch over the message type. prefix is DM so i guess it was called dynamic messaging ? anyway, receiving is straightforward but sending confuses me, what if the first character of a message would fit in that catagory (don't have an ascii map handy to see if that is possible) i would expect a CP_RCD message not an (ab)use of the CP_MESSAGE but i may know too little about netreks early development days. regards Chris -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.us.netrek.org/pipermail/netrek-dev/attachments/20070314/c22905e6/attachment-0001.htm From narcis at luky.nl Wed Mar 14 14:00:54 2007 From: narcis at luky.nl (Narcis) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 20:00:54 +0100 Subject: [netrek-dev] What is a borg? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 14 Mar 2007, at 00:14, netrek-dev-request at us.netrek.org wrote: Some very interesting things were said throughout all emotions, the thing i noticed particually: > As I've learned from James, not all things called "borg" are borg. > As long as only information that is already available is used > (i.e. you have no _more_ info than other players might have), > then it's just a matter of taste how the available info is > presented: if the client has the info, go for it. > I fully agree with that. Is this a general accepted statement? i sometimes hear the B word too, (though it is not quite accurate, MacTrek has ghostbusting problems and the Borg collective has excellent networking :-) but wondered if there is a general consus about what is borg and what is not. Personally i like the definition above, including the statement that computing information (like targeting aids) does qualify as borg. > the netrek "board" (the people who currently run what keeps netrek > alive)? I'd like to address that question to the "board" but would not know where to address. regards Chris From keyos at keyos.org Wed Mar 14 14:29:30 2007 From: keyos at keyos.org (Stas Pirogov) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 21:29:30 +0200 (IST) Subject: [netrek-dev] What is a borg? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Mar 2007, Narcis wrote: > > As I've learned from James, not all things called "borg" are borg. > > As long as only information that is already available is used > > (i.e. you have no _more_ info than other players might have), > > then it's just a matter of taste how the available info is > > presented: if the client has the info, go for it. > > I fully agree with that. > > Is this a general accepted statement? i sometimes hear the B word > too, (though it is not quite accurate, MacTrek has ghostbusting problems > and the Borg collective has excellent networking :-) but wondered if > there is a general consus about what is borg and what is not. > Well, I'd say if you will ask such questions on r.g.n. you will see 10 different answers from 5 people :) The rule of thumb says that if you have the information you can provide it to the player. However there are too many exceptions to such short statement. For example my first client release was borg because I decided to display number of armies by the side of each visible planet in the galaxy. This is big no-no, because (according to veteran players) this info is available in general, but you have to point to the planet and hit 'i' in order to actually get it. This takes time in normal client and doesn't in mine, so it is borg :) Or having player that has kills highlited in the player list (or on the map/tactical) - as well nono (although I think Paradise2000 has this). The best definition of borg that I think I heard of is "If the change provided gives advantage to clued player over newbie - it is borg, if not - it's ok". This one also has its problems, so you'll have to figure out with people here whether feature you add is ok or not. > > the netrek "board" (the people who currently run what keeps netrek > > alive)? > > I'd like to address that question to the "board" but would not know > where > to address. > The board actually includes yourself as well. Everyone who comes to discuss netrek development issues is "the board member". You can create whatever borgs you want and everyone can play them on servers that don't require RSA. If you passed James/Carlos and got your key on key server - you can play anywhere. > regards > > Chris > Stas. > > _______________________________________________ > netrek-dev mailing list > netrek-dev at us.netrek.org > http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev > From karthik at karthik.com Wed Mar 14 14:36:20 2007 From: karthik at karthik.com (Karthik Arumugham) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 15:36:20 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] What is a borg? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7AB9A35E-4D32-4575-9878-5F47923C740C@karthik.com> On Mar 14, 2007, at 3:29 PM, Stas Pirogov wrote: > The board actually includes yourself as well. Everyone who comes to > discuss netrek development issues is "the board member". You can > create > whatever borgs you want and everyone can play them on servers that > don't require RSA. If you passed James/Carlos and got your key on > key server - you can play anywhere. To clarify, some servers may not have RSA on but do NOT allow borgs. The primary Bronco servers, pickled and continuum, fit this definition, or they would not be listed as Bronco servers. The primary reason RSA is currently disabled on pickled is due to MacTrek players who can't verify properly yet. When they are able to verify and sufficient time has passed for them to upgrade, I envision re-enabling RSA. This is less to prevent borg clients (a motivated individual can bypass RSA without too much trouble), but more to keep everyone on the same clientbase (and a clientbase that has been vetted and agreed upon not to be a borg) and allow easy identification of clients. From jjadeinc at hotmail.com Wed Mar 14 14:41:49 2007 From: jjadeinc at hotmail.com (Joe Evango) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 13:41:49 -0600 Subject: [netrek-dev] What is a borg? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Not sure how accepted the statement is, but I agree with it. The way I feel on the issue is, with the gaming market being so competitive we should do what we can to help keep newbies interested in the game. That includes enabling certain features that help new players better understand the game. People don't want to have to read a technical manual to learn how to play. From what I have seen, most want to be able to download and start playing right away. The easier we can make it for people to get into the action of a game of Netrek the better chance we have of keeping them. All the features currently in place seem like reasonable tools to do this. -Joe >From: Narcis >Reply-To: Netrek Development Mailing List >To: netrek-dev at us.netrek.org >Subject: [netrek-dev] What is a borg? >Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 20:00:54 +0100 >Is this a general accepted statement? i sometimes hear the B word >too, (though it is not quite accurate, MacTrek has ghostbusting problems >and the Borg collective has excellent networking :-) but wondered if >there is a general consus about what is borg and what is not. > >Personally i like the definition above, including the statement that >computing information (like targeting aids) does qualify as borg. > > > > > the netrek "board" (the people who currently run what keeps netrek > > alive)? > >I'd like to address that question to the "board" but would not know >where >to address. > >regards > >Chris > > >_______________________________________________ >netrek-dev mailing list >netrek-dev at us.netrek.org >http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev _________________________________________________________________ Get a FREE Web site, company branded e-mail and more from Microsoft Office Live! http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/ From regrado at web.de Wed Mar 14 15:51:34 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 21:51:34 +0100 Subject: [netrek-dev] What is a borg? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070314205134.GA27666@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- Stas Pirogov wrote on Wed 14.Mar'07 at 21:29:30 +0200 -= > The best definition of borg that I think I heard of is "If the > change provided gives advantage to clued player over newbie - it > is borg, if not - it's ok". That's bad, because _everything_ is more useful to the cluebie than to the twink. Cluebies always have a head start. What kind of useful feature would be more helpful to a newbie than a cluebie? > The board actually includes yourself as well. Everyone who comes > to discuss netrek development issues is "the board member". Well, ideally this is true, but there are those who provide the infrastructure, and they therefore have more to say than others, or at least they are to be convinced if something is supposed to change. If they don't support it, then it fails. Nobody can tell them what to do with their resources. -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From regrado at web.de Wed Mar 14 16:31:25 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 22:31:25 +0100 Subject: [netrek-dev] RCD..., borgs, support, community In-Reply-To: <20070313215112.GA5507@us.netrek.org> References: <63856390-77D5-4A66-8A16-A94FB20E13B3@luky.nl> <20070313115221.GB16428@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070313202458.GI16428@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070313215112.GA5507@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: <20070314213125.GB27666@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- James Quick wrote on Wed 14.Mar'07 at 8:51:12 +1100 -= > Calm down kiddies. I am calm. :) Just verbose and curious, and trying to cut down ping-pong threads, posing detailed questions to get as detailed responses, not just usual too generic blabla when the questions are too generic, too. I'd like to understand why people prefer to slow down progress for no benefit _to anyone_, or what this benefit to the netrek community is and therefore why the "lock-down" attitude should be supported/ tolerated by the community. > Trent has the right under the ambiguous licensing of the source > he started with to lock it up, He has the right, but if he prefers to use the code as a toy to brag how much "better" he is than others, then he doesn't deserve support for this attitude. We are not playing "core- wars" here, we're trying to sustain netrek as a whole, not just personal toys of single people. D'oh, even if the code were open, he _still_ could feel better than others, it wouldn't hurt his qualities as "better" coder when everybody can see it; it's the opposite! Competition is the purpose of the game, not the code! We should struggle together, not against each other. It's a PITA for me to see resources wasted in this way. Not only for taking over existing secret ideas, but also to be able to build on top of them what doesn't exist anywhere yet. More than that, the already given short answers indicate even worse beyond simply bad attitude: his locking up causes distrust in him, because he hides the code to continue implementing "borg" features, which nobody can control anymore?! "People don't want XYZ, ok then I hide my code and still do it"? Bad logic. Or: "Others don't port, so neither will I. But not only that, I also lock my code away so nobody else can do it". Bad logic. Changes have to be discussed publicly/ openly to be supported by all in agreement. And we need those changes. Like a feature- rich server a la Paradise, because Bronco is too boring for some newbies. BTW, welcome newbie James, had a look at the archive for recent post to your request? Have tried it? Re: "borg" (-> quozl: "therefore we need features and behaviour that will enlarge the player base.") If it wasn't clear from my post before, I suggested "newbie- friendliness" by means of "info-borgs" for this very reason: to attract and keep more players. Not to change gameplay for anyone. Helping newbies _is_ helping netrek. Info-borgs don't turn tides: It's all just a matter of relations. - for the pros they give minial benefit on absolute scale. - _relative_ to other pros, however, that would be tremendous! - but relative to newbies it doesn't matter how much more the pro is better, the difference is already beyond fairness, the newbie can only win. The biggest progress is made in the beginning. Once you've reached clue status, the differences shrink again. Now, instead of denying the newbies some help because the help can be abused by cluebies, let's compensate it for the "old style" pros: let players _without_ help be rewarded more (or the other less): kill/destroyed ship or bombing, % of normal ship stats (hull, fuel ...), generally less DI -> rank (for the stats madcows). In league games all fancy stuff is off anyway, of course: it remains reserved for the pros. With that you'd have both: easy entry, and a reason not to use it later on. > Bill has the right under the ambiguous licensing of > Paradise-2000 to implement what he likes, Yeah, but he likewise should not rub it in just to provoke anyone. That just further fuels the paranoia. > Where I have noticed that the feature was reverse engineered > from Paradise-2000, I've tried to make a note of that in the COW > commits. I don't know what has been reverse-engineered, but there are things that existed already before in plain P or TT. ;) -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From quozl at us.netrek.org Wed Mar 14 17:11:14 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 09:11:14 +1100 Subject: [netrek-dev] RCD..., borgs, support, community In-Reply-To: <20070314213125.GB27666@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> References: <63856390-77D5-4A66-8A16-A94FB20E13B3@luky.nl> <20070313115221.GB16428@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070313202458.GI16428@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070313215112.GA5507@us.netrek.org> <20070314213125.GB27666@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <20070314221114.GB5445@us.netrek.org> On Wed, Mar 14, 2007 at 10:31:25PM +0100, Rado S wrote: > I'd like to understand why people prefer to slow down progress for > no benefit _to anyone_, or what this benefit to the netrek > community is and therefore why the "lock-down" attitude should be > supported/ tolerated by the community. I don't know why. > > Trent has the right under the ambiguous licensing of the source > > he started with to lock it up, > > He has the right, but if he prefers to use the code as a toy to > brag how much "better" he is than others, then he doesn't deserve > support for this attitude. I don't support Trent's attitude, but I won't fight it. I doubt he thinks of it in the way you describe. > > Bill has the right under the ambiguous licensing of > > Paradise-2000 to implement what he likes, > > Yeah, but he likewise should not rub it in just to provoke anyone. > That just further fuels the paranoia. I don't support Bill's attitude either, but I won't fight it, unless he's trying it on me. I also doubt he thinks of it like that, I expect it is just accidental. I'm not here to exert mental or social control, I'm here to contribute code, to help others to contribute code, to let server admins run something that will bring in newbies *and* provide a protected place for the cripples who refuse to accept change. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From xyzzy at speakeasy.org Wed Mar 14 17:26:11 2007 From: xyzzy at speakeasy.org (Trent Piepho) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 15:26:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [netrek-dev] RCD In-Reply-To: <915B6775-DC9D-4BF9-A46A-5637B1567050@luky.nl> References: <915B6775-DC9D-4BF9-A46A-5637B1567050@luky.nl> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Mar 2007, Narcis wrote: > the first > character of a message would fit in that catagory (don't have an > ascii map > handy to see if that is possible) i would expect a CP_RCD message not an > (ab)use of the CP_MESSAGE but i may know too little about netreks early > development days. The MDISTR flag in the group field of the CP_S_MESSAGE/CP_MESSAGE packet is what identifies the message as an RCD and not just text. From quozl at us.netrek.org Wed Mar 14 17:40:09 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 09:40:09 +1100 Subject: [netrek-dev] Need help troubleshooting a Windows 98 problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070314224009.GC5445@us.netrek.org> On Wed, Mar 14, 2007 at 07:22:51PM +0200, Stas Pirogov wrote: > Latest additions to XP Mod (double buffering IIRC) made it > only playable on XP/2000 + systems. Microsoft do not backport newer > SDK functions to not supported OSes. Ah, is that all it is? The newer client is using newer features available on the operating system. The way we handle that on Linux (apart from the obvious backporting solution or borrowing the DLL) is to build a program with the newer features disabled, and ship that with a file name showing it is for the older versions of Linux. But there are these impacts: - source code has to include #ifdef's for different versions, - build scripts or Makefiles have to identify the version being built, - testing by developer needs to happen on multiple operating system versions, (think VMware Player and a happy instance of the older version), - final release has to include multiple .exe files, or a .dll specific to the operating system version. Therefore it is Bill's call, unless someone wants to step up and help Bill by working with his CVS repository of Netrek XP 2006! -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From quozl at us.netrek.org Wed Mar 14 18:16:42 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 10:16:42 +1100 Subject: [netrek-dev] What is a borg? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070314231642.GD5445@us.netrek.org> I've a few hats, so I'll put them on one by one. 1. server source maintainer, will take any patch that adds useful features, but will resist changes to the amount of information the server gives, since the network protocol is the primary information barrier to prevent allegations of cheating. If there is doubt as to whether the feature would be generally accepted, then it must be configurable for the patch to be accepted. It is up to the server owners to determine what features are enabled. Policy is set by them, not by patch acceptance. 2. client source maintainer, will take any patch that adds useful features, will take any patch that brings the client up toward the level of information provided by most other clients, but will resist changes that draw conclusions from the packet stream in a way that increases the information given to players by an order of magnitude or more. In this way, the COW client on Linux avoids becoming the tall poppy that people whinge about, yet should not be so far behind that people won't use it when they need to. Not there yet. 3. continuum server admin, will enable features that appear to be generally accepted, will push for features that make my life easier, will turn off features that my players whinge seriously about, but won't be swayed by emotional arguments or abusive messages from individuals or small groups. 4. development community benevolent dictator, will accept merges of source from previously divded efforts, so that the ideas are centralised, and communication between potential contributors increased ... that's why I want the Paradise server changes to merge into the Vanilla source, yet be a configuration setting. PARADISE=0 being the default. 5. player community member, will play on whatever server has players. I don't see myself as a significant player community member. 6. australian player community leader, will organise games on a local server, providing the necessary communication infrastructure and announcements. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From williamb at its.caltech.edu Wed Mar 14 18:44:23 2007 From: williamb at its.caltech.edu (William Balcerski) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 16:44:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [netrek-dev] Need help troubleshooting a Windows 98 problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Here goes.... > > >Netrek Classic (2MB) > I downloaded, Installed and set up the Config, when through the quick > Tutorial etc. > When I double clicked the "Netrek" symbol on my desktop it said this: > > / ! \ The NETREK.EXE file is > linked to missing export GDI32.DLL:AddFontResourceExA > [ok] > > in that exact text. > Yes xp mod 4.4.0.4 uses some new font resource adding/removal function that is not backwards compatable.. > >Netrek XP 2006 (8MB) > Installation was fine, and once finished the Netrek XP 2006 Sever List > opened auto > > The good news it that I can play it....... but the planets are just Circles > with names underneath them... > also, it just mucked up after a minute of flying around... the main screen > with all the ships and planets on cloned itself onto the list of players, > then the main one next to the galaxy map froze completely. when i moved the > "clone" up into the middle of the screen, it wasnt enlarged. the small > section of the box was the only part of it (the section was the same size as > the players list, and the players list was gone) > > last time i tried to play it, it was all just bliking and lagging. but since > then i have uninstalled and reinstalled 2 or three times lol. Ok, see the README for Win95, Win98, and WinME file in the docs directly. In brief, not all features will work on Win98, but you can turn them off. I recommend using the following: newQuit: off colorClient: 0 planetBitmap: 0 planetBitmapGalaxy: 0 Open your netrekrc file and find the corresponding entries (should be in alphabetical order). Or use the config utility and choose classic mode..I think that covers the ship and planet bitmaps. You may need to change the quit window setting manually though (newQuit to off). Bill From narcis at luky.nl Fri Mar 16 03:51:19 2007 From: narcis at luky.nl (Narcis) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 09:51:19 +0100 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-dev Digest, Vol 25, Issue 12 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3C02253C-37E5-438C-93A4-0AB17BC250A5@luky.nl> > On Wed, 14 Mar 2007, Trent wrote: >> the first >> character of a message would fit in that catagory (don't have an >> ascii map >> handy to see if that is possible) i would expect a CP_RCD message >> not an >> (ab)use of the CP_MESSAGE but i may know too little about netreks >> early >> development days. > > The MDISTR flag in the group field of the CP_S_MESSAGE/CP_MESSAGE > packet is > what identifies the message as an RCD and not just text. Thanks Trent, i with that statement it was easier to grep through the COW source and find out the details. regards Chris P.S. Now i know how it works, i have to find the time to implement it :) From narcis at luky.nl Fri Mar 16 04:10:54 2007 From: narcis at luky.nl (Narcis) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 10:10:54 +0100 Subject: [netrek-dev] I Locutus of Borg In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <24C52C52-7D93-4D5B-BEEC-D0C022902A51@luky.nl> On 14 Mar 2007, at 22:32, lots of you wrote: > The rule of thumb says that if you have the information you can > provide > it to the player. However there are too many exceptions to such short > statement. Okay, > For example my first client release was borg because I decided to > display > number of armies by the side of each visible planet in the galaxy. > This > is big no-no, because (according to veteran players) this info is > available in general, but you have to point to the planet and hit 'i' > in order to actually get it. This takes time in normal client and > doesn't > in mine, so it is borg :) Yes this was one of the things MacTrek is plagued with too. The first version could do that, the 1.1 has a similar advantage but requires more clicking, i think i will even the playing field by showing it only for 1 planet/ player at the time similiar to the info window, but not in a window. > The best definition of borg that I think I heard of is "If the change > provided gives advantage to clued player over newbie - it is borg, > if not > - it's ok". This one also has its problems, so you'll have to > figure out > with people here whether feature you add is ok or not. which would be about anything, that is different from current mainstream clients. Actually i think it is a balance, new clients do things differently, so for experienced players, MacTreks "plus" features would be outweighted by what you would find in other clients. > The board actually includes yourself as well. Everyone who comes to > discuss netrek development issues is "the board member". I know, but i;am a consensus guy :-) > The primary reason RSA is currently disabled on pickled is due to > MacTrek players who can't verify properly yet. When they are able to > verify and sufficient time has passed for them to upgrade, I envision > re-enabling RSA. Yes we have to look into that, it verifies fine on my server, but do not see other servers enabling RSA. for that. (from logfile: Joining: aqua, (1) Mon Dec 4 21:30:58 2006 Client: MacTrek. Arch: OSX-Tiger. Player: aqua. Login: aqua. at Mon Dec 4 21:31:00 2006 Joining: Blaster, (1) Mon Dec 4 21:34:40 2006 I've just been notified of a problem with 1.1.1 and Apples latest upgrade to OS X 10.4.9 it looks quite bad, the dynamic linker cannot find something in libs i did not know were used anyway. Looking into it. Keep you posted Chris From niclas at acc.umu.se Fri Mar 16 08:25:23 2007 From: niclas at acc.umu.se (Niclas Fredriksson) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 14:25:23 +0100 (MET) Subject: [netrek-dev] What is a borg? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Mar 2007, Stas Pirogov wrote: > Well, I'd say if you will ask such questions on r.g.n. you will see 10 > different answers from 5 people :) That's because on this list there are primarily developers and on rgn there are primarily players. In general the client and server developers have always been people who don't play the game very much or if they do (like Trent and Bill) they care more about having their client be the most popular one than bothering about the game balance and since a borg feature has been implemented in another blessed client they feel no harm can be caused by putting that feature in their own client since it's "already out there". But today hardly anyone plays. It doesn't matter if something as stupid as, for instance, 50 UPS would "ruin the game" because there's pretty much nothing of it left. Big changes change the game in a big way, and we end up with a new game entirely (like with the 5->10 UPS change) and at this point in time pretty much nothing bad can happen. So I say, bring on the borgs. Bring on the big game altering changes. -- Niclas (Trent hates me) From regrado at web.de Fri Mar 16 14:05:17 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 20:05:17 +0100 Subject: [netrek-dev] RCD..., borgs, support, community In-Reply-To: <20070314221114.GB5445@us.netrek.org> References: <63856390-77D5-4A66-8A16-A94FB20E13B3@luky.nl> <20070313115221.GB16428@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070313202458.GI16428@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070313215112.GA5507@us.netrek.org> <20070314213125.GB27666@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070314221114.GB5445@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: <20070316190517.GA4063@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- James Quick wrote on Thu 15.Mar'07 at 9:11:14 +1100 -= > I don't know why. Even though I responded to your mail, I've hoped for answers from Trent rather than from you about questions directed at Trent (as a continuation of the 1st mail with questions to him). Let him speak for himself. > > He has the right, but if he prefers to use the code as a toy > > to brag how much "better" he is than others, then he doesn't > > deserve support for this attitude. > > I don't support Trent's attitude, but I won't fight it. I doubt > he thinks of it in the way you describe. Well, "That's one of my features that no one has managed to copy yet." That sounds pretty much like it to me. Anyway, again I'd like to read Trent's answers. > I don't support Bill's attitude either, but I won't fight it, > unless he's trying it on me. I also doubt he thinks of it like > that, I expect it is just accidental. ... I don't know much about the history between the 2, but ... my little impressions that I have give me this feeling of intentional hostility. > I'm not here to exert mental or social control, I'm here to > contribute code, to help others to contribute code, to let server > admins run something that will bring in newbies *and* provide a > protected place for the cripples who refuse to accept change. Such cripples are not the problem, but statements like this are: "Tell that to the people who try get every feature I think of called borg." Meaning: "They would complain about borgish features, then I do my own secret stuff so they don't know about it." It's not about not changing, but distrust because of obscurity. Blessed binaries may be not relevant for security, yet they mean trust by/to the community (worthy to be supported), as indicator for a balanced game. This trust is gone for P2K. Until I hear a good reason for letting Trent have his secret way, I remove the link to his page from paradise.netrek.org, for the little that it may be worth. -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From xyzzy at speakeasy.org Fri Mar 16 16:15:31 2007 From: xyzzy at speakeasy.org (Trent Piepho) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 14:15:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [netrek-dev] RCD..., borgs, support, community In-Reply-To: <20070314213125.GB27666@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> References: <63856390-77D5-4A66-8A16-A94FB20E13B3@luky.nl> <20070313115221.GB16428@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070313202458.GI16428@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070313215112.GA5507@us.netrek.org> <20070314213125.GB27666@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Mar 2007, Rado S wrote: > I'd like to understand why people prefer to slow down progress for > no benefit _to anyone_, or what this benefit to the netrek > community is and therefore why the "lock-down" attitude should be > supported/ tolerated by the community. Here's a thought Rado, maybe the whole world doesn't revolve around you? Maybe I couldn't care less whether you want an open source client or not. Around ten years ago, I was frustrated with the near zero pace of client development. No one had released an update to the paradise client for several years. There were bugs that were unfixed. Good ideas that weren't implemented. I was unhappy with the netrek clients available to *me* and I wanted a better one. At this time, as is the case now, there were several windows only clients that were getting more attention than the clients available for Linux. I did not want to best netrek client to be windows only. And Rado, unlike some people, I do more for open source operating systems than just whine. I decided that the best netrek client would be Linux only, and I set out to create it. And, at least in my mind, I achieved that goal long ago. I released my client, even thought it was great deal of extra work to do so, so that other Linux users wouldn't have to suffer with sub-standard clients. I used to release the source for everything I wrote. Then people started putting them names on my code and pretending they wrote it. So I decided to stop releasing what I write. It pisses me off to be plagiarized and by not releasing my code (which is mine to do with as I please, you have no right to tell me what to do) I avoid that situation. I don't release my code anymore because of how it effects me. I do not do it to personally spite Rado S; I do not care what he thinks. If I don't help the netrek community more than I do, and I've put more open source code into the server than you have Rado, then that's just too bad. Maybe you should be happy with what you get and stop acting like you are entitled to more. > We should struggle together, not against each other. > I remove the link to his page from paradise.netrek.org, for the > little that it may be worth. If you think your spiteful, and hypocritical, action will make me want to release my source, you are quite mistaken. And quite frankly, your borg speculation is simply clueless. I document all my new features meticulously. Where do you think Bill gets all my ideas from? If there are secret borg features, what are they? Is there some conspiracy among all the people who have used the client to keep them secret from Rado S., Borg Patrol Officer? From regrado at web.de Sat Mar 17 11:14:53 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 17:14:53 +0100 Subject: [netrek-dev] RCD..., borgs, support, community In-Reply-To: References: <63856390-77D5-4A66-8A16-A94FB20E13B3@luky.nl> <20070313115221.GB16428@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070313202458.GI16428@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070313215112.GA5507@us.netrek.org> <20070314213125.GB27666@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <20070317161453.GE5834@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- Trent Piepho wrote on Fri 16.Mar'07 at 14:15:31 -0700 -= > {... irrelevant WRT to open netrek code } > > Then people started putting them names on my code and pretending > they wrote it. Did this happen with netrek? Netrek-people are not as bad as non-trekkies. If there were 1 black sheep, this doesn't mean the rest of the community will let such a thing pass. Plus, public code tracking could always prove your point. > I don't release my code anymore because of how it effects me. That is exactly _how_? What's the ill-effect for you? Stolen credit? What's the ill-effect of stolen credit for open source?! Where stealing this _can not happen_ in a public community. > {...} not releasing my code (which is mine to do with as I please, > you have no right to tell me what to do) I avoid that situation. You have the right to do with the code whatever you want. Make money with it, fine. Make your own game, fine. I'm not telling you what to do, just asking for your reasoning. And maybe explain that you lose more credit than you win this way. > If I don't help the netrek community more than I do, and I've > put more open source code into the server than you have Rado, > then that's just too bad. The messenger doesn't affect the message. Code contribution is no measure for truth or justification. Have I said something untrue or unjust? Just because you might have put more code into the server, this doesn't justify anything bad that you do elsewhere. Why aren't you afraid the same way about the code you've put in the server that it could be "stolen", too? What is the difference between the 2? > Maybe you should be happy with what you get and stop acting like > you are entitled to more. No, I/we are not entitled to more, you're free to do with the code whatever you want. > I document all my new features meticulously. Where do you think > Bill gets all my ideas from? So what would _you lose more_ by releasing the code when the worst you can think of is already happening? > If there are secret borg features, what are they? Hard to tell without seeing the code. That's the point! Never heard of undocumented features? > Is there some conspiracy among all the people who have used the > client to keep them secret from Rado S., Borg Patrol Officer? Whether or not there are actually borg features doesn't matter as much as the responses you've given so far. Trust and credit comes through publicity, not secrecy. > > I remove the link to his page from paradise.netrek.org, for the > > little that it may be worth. > > If you think your spiteful, and hypocritical, action will make > me want to release my source, you are quite mistaken. No, don't be confused, I do _not_ want you to release your code. If you prefer to be happy with it all by yourself, so be it! Can't say anthing against it. My action just supports your desire. I hope others will "help" you, too. What I _do_ want is to officially ask the keymasters to reconsider the granting of blessed status for P2K for the there was no sane reason given yet to bless a closed source client. Or is there anything else I'm missing? Can the keymasters please shed some light? -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From karthik at karthik.com Sat Mar 17 11:56:04 2007 From: karthik at karthik.com (Karthik Arumugham) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 12:56:04 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] Idea for "newbie ships" Message-ID: <50624FFB-EA24-4131-A57D-96C100004EC0@karthik.com> There have been some some arguments on both sides for what is reasonable to change, and what is not reasonable to change, in the interest of attracting new players to the game. Some feel that it's okay to make changes that might stop older players from playing, whereas I am of the school that only major changes that do that are reasonable. (For example, I feel that 50fps is a necessary evil, but I do NOT like the idea of showing damage to anyone since it's an acquired skill, and one that's fun to acquire at that.) I propose the following, based off RadoS' idea of extra information for new players: Newbies get a downgraded ship. No matter what ship type they choose, they end up in a CA. This CA will have det own disabled, and if you are > 2/3 CA phaser distance from the nearest enemy, your torps will linearly go down in speed to a minimum of 67% until you reach 4/3 of CA distance from an enemy ship, at which point they will not slow further. I think the first change will not be noticed by newbies, and the second change will help encourage them to play more aggressively, rather than the plinkage-from-afar that we see nowadays. Also important, the combination of changes will make a clued player not want to ever play the "newbie ship." As compensation for the above, these players will get to see full damage on friendly/enemy ships, will see army counts on all planets (perhaps with a "Bomb Me!" message or similar), and will have some additional form of beeplite enabled to highlight "dangerous" enemy ships. Again, not enough to make a clued player use that ship. To implement this, upon client launch a dialog stating something like "This client is in newbie mode, which will allow you to see extra information on ships and planets to help learn the game. Some advanced features will be disabled in newbie mode." should be displayed. There should be an "I am an experienced player, use default ships" checkbox that permanently disables that message and disables newbie mode, caching the value for future launches. The client will then send a packet to the server that causes that slot to be flagged