And the big deal is? Pre packaged software is nice, until you depend on it. There's too much "Oh my god it's not an rpm? What do I do?" going around. C'mon, how can you mess up with Loki's installer? What's so hard about ./configure --prefix=/usr/local/stow/package-version (stow is my friend!) && make && make install? And why would you need Loki demos in red carped other than permotion? Loki has their own demo installer what will do the same thing for all their demos, so must be permotion... Don't get me wrong, package managment is great. (go apt!) If I had to compile everything I'd never run linux. But if I want the latest version of something and it's not packaged, I'm not going to whine about it. (debian-kde needs an FAQ: "Where are KDE 2.2 packages for Potato?", "You compiled KDE from source? Can you make debs for me?" and the ever popular "Are there XFree 4.0 packages for Potato?) So hear this plea: next time something you want isn't packaged, take some time to learn about your system and compile it. OK...I think I can finish reading mailing lists now... Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://www.ringworld.org "We can learn much more from wise words, little from wisecracks and less from wise guys." --William Arthur Ward