I got into an off-list conversation about dropline / freerock gnome with Chip Currio, one of the developers of the project and on the NORLUG list. Here are his unedited comments (this is a combination of two separate emails) - kind of long but lots of good stuff - thanks Chip! Josh Begin forwarded message: Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 10:36:59 -0500 From: Chip Cuccio <chipster at norlug.org> To: Josh Trutwin <josh at trutwins.homeip.net> Cc: Jima <jima at beer.tclug.org> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Slackware 10.2 and thoughts on gnome? (off-list reply) > Hey, that's cool - didn't know that. Chip - any thoughts on dropline > vs. GSB? I currently use Dropline but was just pointed to GSB as an > alternative. Unfortunately I hear uninstalling Dropline is a painful > endeavor so I'm hoping to use GSB with Slackware on a new laptop. Hey Josh. I'll be very forthcoming about both projects - and the pros and cons of each; * Dropline has more developers than FRG/GSB. Sometimes this is good, sometimes bad. There are only 2 major developers on FRG/GSB (freerock and myself), so it's always under lots of scrutiny - kind of like Pat's own model. * FRG/GSB does not use PAM...Dropline does (Pat V. *hates* PAM, and many Slack users appreciate FRG/GSB because we adhere to Pat's anti- PAM policy). * Dropline replaces your entire X11 system. FRG/GSB does not. It uses the one Pat gives you. :) * Dropline has been around longer, and its "polish" reflects that. I like to think we're "cleaner and simpler". * FRG/GSB has a policy of being non-intrusive - meaning, it does not replace tons of your "stock" Slackware packages. * Dropline has very cool updater GNOME applet. Ours doesn't...yet (it's in the alpha stages). * Dropline offers one way of (officially) installing/ uninstalling...via its own console-based installer. We offer three (`slapt-get` and GSlapt [like Aptitude] being the most popular). Of course with both projects, you can install/uninstall manually with pkgtools. * I've never tried uninstalling Dropline, but I've heard its a bear, and unclean (because it *is* an intrusive project, simply put). FRG/ GSB is so easy and clean to both install/uninstall, it's uncanny. * Dropline only installs on x686 archs. FRG works on x(4|5|6)86, x86_64, and PPC. * FRG offers GSB (the GNOME.SlackBuild scripts) to build it yourself. GSB is how we produce FRG. So of course I am somewhat biased, which is why I co-founded/work on GSB/FRG in the first place. :-) I noticed lots of folks complaining that Dropline was intrusive as all hell (yet, I think it was/is a nice GNOME distro), a colleague and I started on our own alternative that was seamless and non-intrusive. Ergo, Pat actually recommended FRG/GSB in his pseudo-blog/ChangeLog: "So, if you're looking for GNOME for Slackware -current, I would recommend looking at these two projects for well-built packages that follow a policy of minimal interference with the base Slackware system: http://gsb.sf.net http://gware.sf.net There is also Dropline, of course, which is quite popular. However, due to their policy of adding PAM and replacing large system packages (like the entire X11 system) with their own versions, I can't give quite the same sort of nod to Dropline. Nevertheless, it remains another choice, and it's _your_ system, so I will also mention their project: http://www.dropline.net/gnome/" Cited from <http://slackware.com/changelog/current.php?cpu=i386> (toward the bottom). You'll see Pat also mention GWARE. Those are friends of FRG/GSB, and we contrib. patches, etc. to each other and help each other out quite a bit. It's another decent alternative. Hope that helps a bit. -- Chip Cuccio | <chipster at norlug.org> NORLUG Sysadmin & Webmaster | <http://norlug.org/~chipster/> Northfield Linux Users' Group | Northfield, Minnesota USA Second message: Begin forwarded message: Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 12:19:01 -0500 From: Chip Cuccio <chipster at norlug.org> To: Josh Trutwin <josh at trutwins.homeip.net> Cc: Jima <jima at beer.tclug.org> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Slackware 10.2 and thoughts on gnome? (off-list reply) On Aug 30, 2005, at 11:06 AM, Josh Trutwin wrote: > Thanks - do you mind if I copy this to TCLUG? My pleasure! Copy away - but I would appreciate it if you copy TCLUG with all threads inclusive, and verbatim (e.g. no snipping), for the purposes of clarity and completeness. > I have a couple comments inline: Me too :) > On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 > 10:36:59 -0500 Chip Cuccio <chipster at norlug.org> wrote: > >> Hey Josh. >> >> I'll be very forthcoming about both projects - and the pros and >> cons of each; >> >> * Dropline has more developers than FRG/GSB. Sometimes this is >> good, sometimes bad. There are only 2 major developers on FRG/GSB >> (freerock and myself), so it's always under lots of scrutiny - >> kind of like Pat's own model. >> >> * FRG/GSB does not use PAM...Dropline does (Pat V. *hates* PAM, >> and many Slack users appreciate FRG/GSB because we adhere to Pat's >> anti-PAM policy). > > That's one of the reasons I want to switch to FRG personally. I'm > not a big fan of PAM either. >> * Dropline replaces your entire X11 system. FRG/GSB does not. It >> uses the one Pat gives you. :) > > Supposedly it's "optimized" though? I honestly don't follow Dropline all /that/ much, so I can't answer that definitively. I really don't know why they replace the entire X11 system. Wait...I did find their...umm..."FUQ": <http://dlgwiki.dot42.org/index.php/Frequently_Unasked_Questions> >> * Dropline has been around longer, and its "polish" reflects that. >> I like to think we're "cleaner and simpler". >> >> * FRG/GSB has a policy of being non-intrusive - meaning, it does >> not replace tons of your "stock" Slackware packages. >> >> * Dropline has very cool updater GNOME applet. Ours doesn't...yet >> (it's in the alpha stages). >> > > It's not that cool - but it is nice. Checking the website is also > not that hard. :) You can stop the elitism right there. ;) Frankly, the feedback we get from Dropline users (ex and otherwise), is that they like the Dropline applet. That is what prompted us to start working on one as well. It's a handy tool for many folks. Kudos to Dropline project for offering that tool in the first place. >> * Dropline offers one way of (officially) installing/ >> uninstalling...via its own console-based installer. We offer >> three (`slapt-get` and GSlapt [like Aptitude] being the most >> popular). Of course with both projects, you can install/uninstall >> manually with pkgtools and grep. >> >> * I've never tried uninstalling Dropline, but I've heard its a >> bear, and unclean (because it *is* an intrusive project, simply >> put). FRG/GSB is so easy and clean to both install/uninstall, it's >> uncanny. >> >> * Dropline only installs on x686 archs. FRG works on x(4|5|6)86, >> x86_64, and PPC. >> >> * FRG offers GSB (the GNOME.SlackBuild scripts) to build it >> yourself. GSB is how we produce FRG. >> >> So of course I am somewhat biased, which is why I co-founded/work >> on GSB/FRG in the first place. :-) I noticed lots of folks >> complaining that Dropline was intrusive as all hell (yet, I think >> it was/is a nice GNOME distro), a colleague and I started on our >> own alternative that was seamless and non-intrusive. Ergo, Pat >> actually recommended FRG/GSB in his pseudo-blog/ChangeLog: >> > > <snip> If you plan on copying TCLUG, include my original citations and their sources. Thanks. >> You'll see Pat also mention GWARE. Those are friends of FRG/GSB, >> and we contrib. patches, etc. to each other and help each other >> out quite a bit. It's another decent alternative. >> > > How would you describe the differences between GWare and FRG? Ever > thought of joining forces? In a nutshell, Gware's offering caters to the minimalist. FRG's offering is very complete. Gware is a fantastic GNOME distro for folks who just want the basic, base GNOME desktop environment. Gware's developers also adhere to a non-intrusive policy. I do believe Gware _requires_ Linux 2.6. FRG will work with Pat's 2.4 *and* 2.6 kernels. BTW: I'm relatively certain that Dropline also requires 2.6 - but please do correct me if I'm mistaken. FRG offers many "extra" GNOME software packages and artwork, etc.. However, there is a "minimal install" feature of FRG if folks don't want all the extra stuff. We have not discussed joining forces. Our goals are quite different, but we do collaborate often. The Gware folks are a fantastic bunch who produce a very solid project. > Do you think the latest FRG would work with Slackware 10.2 PRE? > http://linux.softpedia.com/get/System/Operating-Systems/Linux- > Distributions/Slackware-425.shtml I know FRG works on Slackware-current[1], because I test/dev/use frg- (0.2.2|current) with Slackware-current on a daily basis. Let me just close stating that Dropline deserves lots of plugs. That project set the stage with regard to GNOME distros for Slackware. We do collaborate with the Dropline team on occasion, and I will say, they have very talented developers, and they're damn fine folks. Take care. -- Chip Cuccio | <chipster at norlug.org> NORLUG Sysadmin & Webmaster | <http://norlug.org/~chipster/> Northfield Linux Users' Group | Northfield, Minnesota USA [1] Let me clarify something (not being pedantic - just clarifying); There is no Slackware "10.2 Pre." Technically, the latest version of Slackware is always "-current". There are no Slackware "pre" versions. Sometimes Pat will call -current a "beta" in his -current ChangeLog, but it's still -current. That site you link to is misleading with their "10.2 pre" ISO. That is an unofficial ISO based on -current snapshots. Just wanted to clarify that, because "10.2 pre" may confuse folks. :)