I agree with Dan Taylor. That is the problem. You cannot get rid of government altogether, but if you weaken government sufficiently (as Grover Norquist has said -- so that he can drown it in the bathtub), then other very unpleasant things will happen. Government will be controlled by powerful corporations and super-rich individuals for their personal gain. I also note, in line with Dan's argument, that whenever I argue for higher taxes on the rich, my so-called "conservative" or "libertarian" friends will ask "why do you hate the rich?" They want to argue about the goodness of the rich. Sorry, I don't hate them and I don't think they are "good" either. I think that way of thinking about the problem is a waste of time. I just want them to pay higher taxes and maintain a more equal share of the wealth and power with the rest of us. That's all. If I could save $10 million per year, it would only take me 6,000 years to amass as much wealth as Bill Gates. If I could only save $60,000 per year, and I can't even do that!, then it would take me 1,000,000 to save up as much as Bill Gates. Or maybe I could put together a team of 10,000 people, each saving $60,000 per year, then it would only take my team 100 years to amass as much wealth as Bill Gates. But the thing is, this OK because Bill Gates is so "good" that he deserves to have super-massive wealth and power and I'm, I guess, just not that good. So it's fair. Mike On Mon, 23 Aug 2010, Daniel Taylor wrote: > This is a totally bizarre place for this discussion, but I'm game to > continue as long as it's civil and nobody objects. > > On 08/22/2010 09:17 AM, J.A. Simmons V wrote: >> Daniel, >> I will agree that there is a lot of religious mysticism regarding the >> concept that is a free market, both for and against. I have met a lot of >> irrationality on both sides, and most of it comes from a lack of actual >> research and logical thinking. Does laissez-faire have problems, of >> course it does, as does every system, but I hold that it is the fairest >> system that we have at this time. >> > The fundamental problem with laissez-faire is actually the same as the > problem with governmental control. A significant portion of the human > population has a desire to maximize their personal power. > > Any system that does not have explicit checks on their ability to do so > will eventually devolve into some form of tyranny when one of these > individuals finally succeeds in surpassing the ability of any other > individual or group to suppress them. Even systems that do have such > checks may fail over time, but they tend to be much longer lived and > present a more stable environment until they fail. > > It is really exactly as simple as that, and this tendency is well known > and has been recognized for centuries. It is in fact one of the primary > principles behind the division of powers in the US Constitution. > > Thus, while it is obvious that too much government causes problems and > misallocation of resources, it is equally clear that too little > government will have the same result. The path for maximal market > freedom is therefore one in which both extreme wealth and extreme > poverty are guarded against as related evils, as well as providing a > framework for the consistent punishment of fraud. > > Not touching the money question right now. I might come back to it later. > > -- > Dan > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list >